The American Speaker Project, now and then...

I own a pair of the 414-8C. They are as I believe you described: they have a one-piece cast return pot that has a stepped shape. This pot is painted a textured black along with the rest of the frame. The frame is the square edge cast frame. Magnets are alnico. The 414-8B only mounts from the front.

When compared side by side with a 414A, the cone appears to be slightly more coarsely textured and perhaps slightly heavier. Altec rated them 3dB less than the 414A. I’ve seen factory response curves for both drivers. The 414A has a classic rising response and more smoothly extended top end. The midrange response is a a bit greater than the mid bass. The 414-8B response is flatter but does not roll off as smoothly nor as high. It appears the later driver response is knocked down in the midrange a bit to better match the mid bass.

In another thread, a user simulated the Altec 614 and 9498 enclosure response. He noted the 614, with its 2” x 7” x 3/4” simple port showed a “pleasant” bass hump around 55hz that seemed to work well with the response of the 414A. The later 9849 cabinet of the same dimensions had two tuned ports of 3” x 6”. These ports were of the same area of the 614 port, but 6” deep rather than 3/4” deep. The resulting response was much flatter than the 614, with extended but not exaggerated bass. This response would seem to work well with the 414-8B, extending bass response without the mid bass emphasis. The response looks a lot more like a sealed box than a vented enclosure. I think the response was tailored for near-boundary location in smaller control rooms.
Really have to agree with your post! Those assessments meet with all the experience over the years of handling these things. The simulation noted above more-or-less agrees with the times we listened to these systems. They often came in from Studios or as Cinema side fill.

The early 414's (A and Z types) are more valuable, as they are sought after both for the midrange response, which can add detail -- that and the better efficiency for our favorite -- low power SE amp crowd.

Altec was definitely making tweaks for flatter response and for extended bass (the heavier paper and broader accordian edges)- which in sealed or heavily ported arrangements, after all was said and done (ie non optimal crossovers, thick spandex grille fabric etc) -- let to overall lower detail, sensitivity and somewhat muddier sound. Many of these things were simply beyond their control, and the designs were really in sync with the desired sound of the era, and the use of brite and harsh silicon solid state amps...

None of this means you can't do a very nice system around the later Alnico (step backs) or even pancake ceramics... quite the contrary - I would say -- you just have to be cognizant of the lower sensitivity --- which is really no problem still for most tube amps in normally sized rooms... Given the right T/S workups / considerations -- these flubby movers can even be pressed into service in Open or Pseudo open baffle... I have been seeing 15" and 18" sizes, similar to the open baffle woofer a customer was looking into over there at aesspeakers.com
They make a "loosy goosey" woofer designed for open baffle. While the Altec's were not designed for it -- I have seen it done and have heard feedback of positive results -- sometimes you just have to try it! (With woofers, of course allot depends on the amp).

Given the cost of the over-sought-after 414Z's I do encourage customers to experiment, especially with Jensens and other heavy paper classics... Of the early Altec 12"s the 414Z is one of my lesser fav's as the reddish cambric treated edges tend to (sometimes, just the unlucky) get hard, and accentuate the midrange favoring properties above (in this case they are both less efficient and a bit thin)...
 
One of the future experiments on my bucket list will be to power up some high voltage field coil Jensen 12's, with a low power DC at around 30 V – – I expect to get quite good sound from them so they will be underdamped…

As I've just picked up some field coil Jensen 12's (marked C12 on the frame) that were pulled from a Capehart console (not by me), I'm curious about this experiment. What would you expect the sonic results would be if running them at a lower voltage?
 
As I've just picked up some field coil Jensen 12's (marked C12 on the frame) that were pulled from a Capehart console (not by me), I'm curious about this experiment. What would you expect the sonic results would be if running them at a lower voltage?
Great question! My 2 cents?
Well, in general the effects of a weaker magnet (ie the lower voltage experiment) are pretty well known ... lots to read on that topic for sure... it's been assumed that the magnet should always be as strong as possible -- but that's not the whole story, especially if you are talking woofers.
Lower voltage on a FC, expected results would be less sensitivity (lower volume per milliwatt), and also -- more importantly a large shift on the speaker's magnetic dampening -- this in turn drastically changes to the mechanical performance -- what's now used these days and since the 60s or70s... T/S parameters can define this.
Now, most audiophiles would drop off here .. thinking a weaker magnet would have to be automatically worse ... not always so -- the T/S parameters need to be matched up (as well as possible, I am a frequent offender especially when experimenting)...to the type of enclosure or baffle you are using.... the rest of the T/S is based all around the suspension and the paper cone , and this is where it gets interesting...

On these old Rola's and Jensen's ... the paper was pretty rigid, and the suspension almost too stiff, the efficiency really high, and lots of lower midrange -- thanks to the often phenolic wafer (or thin paper) "spyder" that holds the voice coil in center... for a woofer that can be too stiff, which equals too "fast".... so weaking the magnet will relax the mechanical spring portion of the speakers action (possibly) giving more excursion and "tubbier" bass. Later woofers went to a cambric fabric, more friendly to excursion.

A loose cone with more excursion was what Altec was after, when they changed the cone of the 803, 515, 414 and 416 series woofers... It depends on the baffle, type of music, the overall sound of the speaker (just because a FC woofer is old, does not make it automatically good), VC suspension type, and voltage level.

Your 100-180volt Jensen speakers will actually energize with a tiny amount juice, even from say, a 9 volt battery! The volume level will increase sort of logarithmically to about 40 volts, and will increase only slightly in apparent loudness from there (if memory serves) -- the rest is just beefing up the magnet's ability to control the cone -- which is a big deal, but not the be-all-end-all of SQ.
 
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I have a question @hifitown ; I have a set of 416-16Z’s (black variety re-coned and recharged by GPA) that I’ll be using for a set of replica iconics, but I also stumbled upon a set of green 16ohm 803B’s recently (the original owner noted they were re-coned by Altec before they went under). In your opinion is one better than the other for the iconic project?
Pictures of the 803B’s below, the 416’s look brand new (less doping on the web) so no pics posted. Thanks in advance!
 

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Hi Audionut, Another good woofer question! These are tough ones guys :) I could start a thread and call it The "American Woofer Project" -- but I think it's certainly a topic harder to address, with many more practical and highly subjective paths to correctness ;0

Well, hmm, are we talking the original Iconic system in intention??… That’s certainly one of America’s finest shakes a realistic sounding and reasonably sized HiFi. The story of the first Iconic really is the birth of home listening, just about. With 1940s era parts, I am not sure it’s ever been bested in it’s class, in reality, ever.

The progression of Altec (and most everyone else's) woofers is primarily in sync with the styles of music and the electrical power available to make the bass, and perhaps most important, the market of audio playback. Market expectations really were at odds with efficiency and overall, dynamic realism as the years went by.

So, short answer is, the condition of both sets of speakers similar enough, I would expect similar results. (The 803’s have the chunky plastic bonded cork, a give-away that the recones were no older than early 1980s)..Hang on to your GPA’s for now, and hold out for some original 803A’s or B’s or perhaps even consider some all paper 15”s (in our 1940’s Iconic build, we actually used a nice old Jensen P15)…

Since both have modern cones, both are approximately equivalent to the last style of woofers OKC made. I say to stick with your GPA’s, as their cones are indeed different than OEM, but not by much at all — and should do about as well as the last ones made by Altec, OKC, mid/late 1990s. The oem stock Altec 803B is an interesting one, and featured a transition-in-design cone, bridging the old cinema days, with the higher-powered HiFi era for audiophiles that wanted more boom; a 1950s missing link if-you-will.. They are supposed to (most I have seen) have a red tinted surround, and I remember them fondly from use in the Laguna as twinsee’s with the 511 ( which balanced out nicely) Many 803"A's also have a thin layer of tacky, but still feature paper roll, not accordion all the way too the edge.

I am not here to bash or troll the more modern cones. The wide roll (cloth I think) accordion edges were envisioned for higher travel, but then the coils got bigger wire for better wattage ratings … So as the years went by they got slower and heavier…. They also became handy for for sealed or ported boxes and capable of much more excursion — which is a different thing.

The original 1940s Altec design (515) and the 803 (which was a similar cone) go all the way back into the late 1930's.. these cones were recognizable in design, but materials-wise they were very much prewar. Featuring a phenolic dampening spider with a felt backing that’s fully adjustable. The oldest ones have all paper edge with no resin at all …. The non treated paper extended all the way to the mounting holes clamped in place by a cast metal ring that can be easily unscrewed for on site, cinema cone changes.

That's about time, in the LA area 1940s that Les Paul got turned onto the stuff and realized it was a killer tool for monitoring as he laid down some of the very first multi-track recordings. Later he used 604’s, but he used the early ones first..and they too, had all paper woofers)

(OK actually the very first 1930s FC Lansing had a different cast frame and some of them even shared components with really early Magnavox and Utah stamped steel stuff, but that is a different story, keep this history short, we are just concerning the inherited Altec designs)

When Altec horned in (sorry for the pun) on the outfit during a cash lean period.... this right before the war, things started to change pretty immediately. Lansing was still there under contract. so aspects were still being overseen by him... Not exactly sure when the 803 came to existence, but I believe the earliest ones or model A's, and or a dark gray crinkle with a gold decal. It's possible there are some red white blue versions, but I am not sure I recall. Someone else can chime in on that one...

In the right setting, if you enjoy flatter-punchier, studio pedigree sounds of the 70s, ( Westlake Standardization and up) — then really I think you might be set. Just be aware, it’s a different sound than the “original” Iconic (Altec used the Iconic badge in places well into the 70s). And, Since Altec kept the efficiency/sensitivity way-way up we see these late model cones/coils doing well even in old style bass reflex, and open baffle situations. This lends a dual purpose to this sort of modern cone, which is not bad at all. If you are after a more breathless vocal/jazz/folk (and some rock) scenario, consider going to the trouble in finding a all-paper woofer you really like down the road.

The original Lansing/Altec paper was a faster, more detailed reproducer — and far more fragile in high output situations. Later cones travel more, but are not super crisp, and free of muddiness and ready to reproduce the slightest vocal whisp on flea watts…. The older cones were so much better at this. Pair that with the tar filled multicell Lansing (or Stephens, or Magnavox, or anything like it) on top and a good 2 way crossover in that small utility cabinet — and you have the birth of a small home listening system to die for with the right amp

By the late 1940s, it was clear people (ie Audiophiles) wanted good speakers in their homes… so the earliest monophonic home, horn speakers came to be…the Iconic system was right there ready about 1945 or so. When Lansing left he designed an amazing smaller horn with better Zen (more on that later) and tried to sell as “Iconic” systems for home audio. Then, Altec sent him a nasty letter. Lansing Sound (JBL) was born.

So I hope these thoughts were useful and I am excited to find out which horn/driver you are going to use. There are some really cool horns in the works for 1” drivers… and many of them should do very well. I think the magic to the Iconic was balance and the good horn/driver…and the not too complicated use of a well understood, passive crossover with good parts.
 

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Hi Audionut, Another good woofer question! These are tough ones guys :) I could start a thread and call it The "American Woofer Project" -- but I think it's certainly a topic harder to address, with many more practical and highly subjective paths to correctness ;0

Well, hmm, are we talking the original Iconic system in intention??… That’s certainly one of America’s finest shakes a realistic sounding and reasonably sized HiFi. The story of the first Iconic really is the birth of home listening, just about. With 1940s era parts, I am not sure it’s ever been bested in it’s class, in reality, ever.

The progression of Altec (and most everyone else's) woofers is primarily in sync with the styles of music and the electrical power available to make the bass, and perhaps most important, the market of audio playback. Market expectations really were at odds with efficiency and overall, dynamic realism as the years went by.

So, short answer is, the condition of both sets of speakers similar enough, I would expect similar results. (The 803’s have the chunky plastic bonded cork, a give-away that the recones were no older than early 1980s)..Hang on to your GPA’s for now, and hold out for some original 803A’s or B’s or perhaps even consider some all paper 15”s (in our 1940’s Iconic build, we actually used a nice old Jensen P15)…

Since both have modern cones, both are approximately equivalent to the last style of woofers OKC made. I say to stick with your GPA’s, as their cones are indeed different than OEM, but not by much at all — and should do about as well as the last ones made by Altec, OKC, mid/late 1990s. The oem stock Altec 803B is an interesting one, and featured a transition-in-design cone, bridging the old cinema days, with the higher-powered HiFi era for audiophiles that wanted more boom; a 1950s missing link if-you-will.. They are supposed to (most I have seen) have a red tinted surround, and I remember them fondly from use in the Laguna as twinsee’s with the 511 ( which balanced out nicely) Many 803"A's also have a thin layer of tacky, but still feature paper roll, not accordion all the way too the edge.

I am not here to bash or troll the more modern cones. The wide roll (cloth I think) accordion edges were envisioned for higher travel, but then the coils got bigger wire for better wattage ratings … So as the years went by they got slower and heavier…. They also became handy for for sealed or ported boxes and capable of much more excursion — which is a different thing.

The original 1940s Altec design (515) and the 803 (which was a similar cone) go all the way back into the late 1930's.. these cones were recognizable in design, but materials-wise they were very much prewar. Featuring a phenolic dampening spider with a felt backing that’s fully adjustable. The oldest ones have all paper edge with no resin at all …. The non treated paper extended all the way to the mounting holes clamped in place by a cast metal ring that can be easily unscrewed for on site, cinema cone changes.

That's about time, in the LA area 1940s that Les Paul got turned onto the stuff and realized it was a killer tool for monitoring as he laid down some of the very first multi-track recordings. Later he used 604’s, but he used the early ones first..and they too, had all paper woofers)

(OK actually the very first 1930s FC Lansing had a different cast frame and some of them even shared components with really early Magnavox and Utah stamped steel stuff, but that is a different story, keep this history short, we are just concerning the inherited Altec designs)

When Altec horned in (sorry for the pun) on the outfit during a cash lean period.... this right before the war, things started to change pretty immediately. Lansing was still there under contract. so aspects were still being overseen by him... Not exactly sure when the 803 came to existence, but I believe the earliest ones or model A's, and or a dark gray crinkle with a gold decal. It's possible there are some red white blue versions, but I am not sure I recall. Someone else can chime in on that one...

In the right setting, if you enjoy flatter-punchier, studio pedigree sounds of the 70s, ( Westlake Standardization and up) — then really I think you might be set. Just be aware, it’s a different sound than the “original” Iconic (Altec used the Iconic badge in places well into the 70s). And, Since Altec kept the efficiency/sensitivity way-way up we see these late model cones/coils doing well even in old style bass reflex, and open baffle situations. This lends a dual purpose to this sort of modern cone, which is not bad at all. If you are after a more breathless vocal/jazz/folk (and some rock) scenario, consider going to the trouble in finding a all-paper woofer you really like down the road.

The original Lansing/Altec paper was a faster, more detailed reproducer — and far more fragile in high output situations. Later cones travel more, but are not super crisp, and free of muddiness and ready to reproduce the slightest vocal whisp on flea watts…. The older cones were so much better at this. Pair that with the tar filled multicell Lansing (or Stephens, or Magnavox, or anything like it) on top and a good 2 way crossover in that small utility cabinet — and you have the birth of a small home listening system to die for with the right amp

By the late 1940s, it was clear people (ie Audiophiles) wanted good speakers in their homes… so the earliest monophonic home, horn speakers came to be…the Iconic system was right there ready about 1945 or so. When Lansing left he designed an amazing smaller horn with better Zen (more on that later) and tried to sell as “Iconic” systems for home audio. Then, Altec sent him a nasty letter. Lansing Sound (JBL) was born.

So I hope these thoughts were useful and I am excited to find out which horn/driver you are going to use. There are some really cool horns in the works for 1” drivers… and many of them should do very well. I think the magic to the Iconic was balance and the good horn/driver…and the not too complicated use of a well understood, passive crossover with good parts.
Thank you for a thorough and detailed response! Although I’d love to build an exact replica, most of the parts are hard to come by (at a reasonable price if at all). I may swap out my newer parts (802D 16ohm, H808 3D print horn) with original ones if I like what I hear. I will peg you in my iconic thread to get more of your thoughts there.
 
Part 2:
12 & 15" Woofer Opinions, HiFiTown


Some of the 1940s General Electric, (Electronics
Park era) bubble shape frame speakers are out of this world. Most are great.
They cover a similar similar range as WE728, but do not have the low cone resonance.
(This comment does not include the 1960s cambric / flexair version.)

“285”
Rola, another early all paper maker from Chi-Town — made some good stuff for the musical instrument co. If you are looking for “real” or “hybrid” speakers that are all paper, look at some of these carefully.
In general, Rola speakers are a mixed bag… some are OK, and some are 5 star outstanding…. not near as consistent as the Jensens… a reason why the Brand really sleeps.

RCA
9443 15” field coil
9449 15” PM
and Many 12” types.
Older is better.

And lots of others,

See EIA codes… these include 328 (Utah), (270) Quam and (465) Oxford

REAL WOOFERS
Born of the 1950s HiFi craze, robe wearing, pipe smoking, liquor tasting, really manly men, discovered they needed actual woofers.


By “actual”, I mean, a speaker made to make LF, and only LF. The cones tend to be heavy, magnets are larger, and most importantly, the cone resonance is nice and low. For this reason, in some cases, we enjoy running them full range, cross-overless, because they simply can’t reach into the mids…
These actual woofers don’t know what fast is. They are slow moving air pushers.

The older they are, the less the cones moved in and out.
High excursion later models meant deeper, “whompas” bass, as Walt liked to describe it.
Whompas is enjoyable, for instance with authentic 1970s recordings with electronica etc.

Bozak:
Bozak B199— sorry to all.. I don’t see these as WECO 728 replacements. They do have low cone resonance, but they also move very slowly …making the class of an early “real” woofer (the paper really did have wool!). They’re good “real woofers” that can perform with low loads and maybe OB in some cases.
Rudy Bozak worked for Western Electric for a stint, and then an interesting company called Cinaudigraph. While there, he worked on some of the earliest super woofers, up to 24" (before the Hartley and the EV by decades). He then shot off on his own after WWII. His design philosophies were well researched, legit, and novel. The materials, ahead of their time. The systems, power hungry, well balanced and ready to rock the house. Ultimately, Bozak speakers are not usually sensitive enough to keep up in real miliwatt tube horn systems, but can be integrated in moderately stout to setups, to good success. Old Rudy did claim they were supremely efficient, but not sensitive, a perhaps correct redressing of terms. They do have uses, and allot of the early parts really can sound very, very good. The parts are generally very undervalued and getting less common, so watch for a price rise over time as new-found and rediscovered uses emerge. On these, I take notice on the early 1950s B series, most of which was a thick woolen paper -- this includes the 12", which often mounted in the space of a 15, with a nifty adapter ring... this ring setup was also used to form a crossbar to hold the tweeters, in coaxial arrangements.
By the 1960s, The B series 6 and 8" midrange drivers, as well as tweeters, had gone aluminum clad, high design. These parts are less sensitive than the older all paper, versions, which also sound different. Premiums are paid for the early paper stuff. Bozak systems are also well known for more-complicated-than-normal crossovers, which are no basic butterworth -- and are more of a complicated 6db per octave charade -- they have a cult following, as well.

— EV 12W & 15 “W” and “WK” (Klipsch)
Early EV was spawned by engineering at the west coast Stephens Trusonic camp.
Old Electrovoice was nicely made stuff, and possessed real hifi pedigree. It’s most certainly way undervalued at present day.

— University C15 (these are a odd beast, and have a cult following because of the dual voice coils) — They are cheap, overbuilt and sound pretty good, honestly one of University’s best products… As good as Altec, JBL or RCA? Looks / build, yes. Sound…maybe — maybe not — depends on your genius.

— Altec 416, 414’s, late model 515 C,D,E
All excellent woofers, with a nice balance of speed and excursion to please all.
An undersung version of the 414, we really liked was the last — 414 16C

— Jensen P15LL (there were 3 versions of this “real woofer”, all called P15LL…
the pretty one was used in the Jensen TP 100, TP 200 Triplex, as well as big RS-100 Imperials..
The plain one is just as good, and was used famously in the good Leslie organ speaker…

the Imperial version:
http://www.hifitown.com/pictures/jensenp15ll_imperiala.jpg
These are really good. and at present 2020 prices, a pretty good value.
The heavy paper makes these slow (not to confuse with P15 of F15 original)

By the late, late 1950s, Stereophonically intoxicated, space-faring man discovered the insane concept of hermetically sealed boxes…aka the supposed be-all, end-all of HiFi perfection (Hey one is at the Smithsonian, that settles it, right?, bah hahaha :-)

This lead to air suspension woofers:
— The excellent, originally AR1 and (early) AR3 12”.
This beefy, engorged, doped and rubber laden monstrosity worked very well for what it was.
On the first gen, no foam on these, just paper and cloth.
This speaker, went through more revisions than can be written here.
Suffice to say, the first version is the coolest, which was all paper, and a heavy black fabric edge.
Out of the sealed box, these have serious uses— in the deep, deep LF region.... they are not any less efficient or sensitive than the B199, and the midrange rolloff is SUPER STEEP, making it one of the woofiest-woofers you’ll ever encounter.
If memory serves, it’s also 16ohm.
Early Janzen systems also used the AR1 version (and of course AR1W)
It’s the real deal in this category.

— Jensen Flexair series, made for sealed enclosures and other heavy reflex cabinets like the famously donned in Frazier’s brilliant little Dixelander. Jensen Flexair speakers have a following and their uses. They are not super sensitive speakers.

Hybrid... aka "Jack of all Woofer - Speakers"
I am mixing things up here, because to be fair some of these below were never intended to be used in open baffle setups… leaving them in the list because allot of value to be had,, these are Jack-of-all-Trades, tube era speakers that try do it all: Look for 12 and especially 15” speakers that have blocked over vents on the dust cap

Altec Biflex series 412 and 415
Not sure why these are not more popular. They’re pretty good for allot of needs.
http://www.hifitown.com/pictures/rcvrpraltec412b8c.jpg

Altec 420 — these were the ill fated of Altec’s pro 15” line. A ruinous product that sent their languishing Musical Instrument division into an embarrassing tailspin. The 420 was Altec’s answer to the JBL D130, but it, like allot of Altec was just too delicate… so yeah, they cooked on silicon powered Deep Purple riffs — oops.
For HiFi, the 420 should be well enough suited, but so far, few reports in.
http://www.hifitown.com/pictures/rcvrpraltec420a3a.jpg
http://www.hifitown.com/pictures/rcvrpraltec420a3b.jpg

JBL D130’s and musical Instrument variants.
A masterpiece do-all speaker that we never used around here, .. unless it was in a spectacular JBL enclosure of one from or another. As with Altec, the older-is-better rule applies.

— The Rola 15” all paper (this speaker was used originally for pipe organs!
http://www.hifitown.com/pictures/rcvrprrolawoofersa.jpg
http://www.hifitown.com/pictures/rcvrprrolawoofersc.jpg
These ROLA's proved popular for nice, speedy low bass on open baffle…

— the EV’s, SP 12 (the 12W rocking a sub cone to make it full range)
— Many of the Jensens… look for felted over vent caps.
And many more....
The end for now.
I am interested in acquiring a set of P15LL’s (before they climb in price any more), and I remember someone noting that the Jensen P15LS were the same as LL’s, is this the case?
 
Hey Early, in one of your posts you mentioned the use of a chemical to soften hardened surround goop. Can you provide info on that material and process and if you happen to know what was used for the goop that would be a great thing I think for many of us to know. It seems to be a mystery.

Wonderful stuff. Thanks
 
I am interested in acquiring a set of P15LL’s (before they climb in price any more), and I remember someone noting that the Jensen P15LS were the same as LL’s, is this the case?
Apologies -- did not see these last few posts! Yes, I'm just getting ready to make that comparison actually to double check. But to answer your question, off the top of my head, yes pretty much the same speaker. One went into a Heath product and the others went into factory Jensen products. Others may be better at decoding the Jensen suffix. And ultimately this depends on the cone numbers. I may have some better info in a few days after I take a look and compare the two. On any given Sunday, Jensen was known to switch and swap parts around without notice. So you do have to very carefully compare cosmetics and structure including the suspension of the speaker. By the time they were making these the suspension was pretty much always cambric fabric... paper spiders went out of use in the 50s. That said, be sure any pairs you buy are well matched (as possible).
 
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Here is what appears to be a 1955 803A that came in a big mono cabinet with a WE KS12025 horn w/802C. Made by High Fidelity house in Pasadena.
View attachment 38598View attachment 38599
All right now! Whoa... cool system! Ha ha. So I guess the horn and driver were missing? Anyway I bet this combo sounded very nice when fully loaded. Very cool find. Yes there were definitely boutique-custom outfits out on the West Coast in the late 1940s pre-stereo era. Just about the same time that Lansing was starting up JBL. Everybody was having the same idea and this is where Audio was moving out of the Theatre and into the living room. They knew what they were doing and they made some really spectacular stuff for the "fru-fru" dealers.
 
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Hey guys, that's great. It really is nice to chat and catch up with old friends and customers. And I hope that it is somewhat helpful and not too full of typos – – I definitely write them too quickly and there are most likely mistakes --- so you guys feel free to correct!
This may sound like shameless pandering but there is great interest in the information that you’ve offered so generously here. My question to you is (apologies if this was raised earlier) when is the book coming out? If nothing else, you could at least amend any factual transgressions stated in this thread ;)
 
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This may sound like shameless pandering but there is great interest in the information that you’ve offered so generously here. My question to you is (apologies if this was raised earlier) when is the book coming out? If nothing else, you could at least amend any factual transgressions stated in this thread ;)
Thanks OpenBaffled! Doing audio for a living definitely puts limits on the fun videos and write-ups I like to do... I would love to do a book or some sort of disruptive manuscript on our adventures with these speakers – – but no time yet....work life balance, uggh.

And I don't know – – I really do have to give credit for all the other guys out there doing it like glow in the dark audio. It's so funny that he publicized many speakers we glossed over as either to obscure or not our cup O' tea.

As of late I've also been interesting in letting the dust settle – – on all of the new stuff that people are diving into. Even despite the pandemic – – costs are coming down for lots of interesting modern full range speakers in the 8 to 15 inch size range.
I will go on the record for saying that we tried many recent incarnations of stuff like this, and nothing came close to some of the best speakers like the Telefunken 8 inch or even some wildly odd elliptical speakers that you can grab it out of Great-Grandpa's Califone record player.

JE2A3 did a wonderful job posting my father Walt's old articles from AS, circa 1988 (which actually do cover some of the cream of the crop, speakers – – particularly the 755) -- that's just for background....
But there's so much else that we went on to learn working with cheaper finds by the 90s.
GlowIntheDark style type stuff, we published in the early 2000s AudioMart magazines at least a couple of articles. I'll be posting those on my website when I get it in better condition. It covers several of the really good German full range drivers including the RFT and the Telefunken's. Along with suggestions on doing a tall frame open baffle. Common stuff you see on the Internet nowadays – – but it was pretty freaky 20 years ago!

By the early 2000s Western Electric prices had gotten so high along with everything else – – we were really eager to introduce DIYers to "disruptive" retro-technology that was much cheaper and even more sensitive for FleaWatts (Class D amps were just coming out and we had other ideas with tubes and Germanium WE xstrs) – – nothing much more exquisite than some of these insanely detailed lightweight full range speakers. Back then Tele's, Grundig's and select US made speakers were super findable.

I'm a little frustrated by the disallusion of forgotten elliptical speakers these days -- it's because they were never discovered in the first place.. Technically the elliptical speaker is strangely advantageous especially for reproducing low frequencies on open baffle and in other circumstances --because of the space savings and other advantages – – they typically got thrown in cheap places giving them an automatic bad reputation...... The Ellipses might help with the gripes of some fellas who like a little bit of low end with their detail.. It's even been mentioned in some of the older speaker building journals as such. If you guys would like some odd recommendations on those let me know. Those are probably the very cheapest very most forgotten and very most excellent sound for the money!

Here is Walt Bender, circa, approx 2001, - HiEnd audio disruptor extraordinaire - with 2hr creation featuring a horn stollen from an Altec Magnificent... and (2) Oxfords (one of my favorite seldom-seen brands...)....funny pose as he was getting the wiring straight...
The goal was to demonstrate how excellent some of these full range wizard cone drivers can be – – next to the very best. Thereby offering DIY audio builders ( then still active in Japan) As I recall he threw the it together to test some things out as well as demo these particular units – – versus the crème de la crème WE757 our friend was coming to pick up.


You'd be utterly shocked at how well these two ellipticals performed versus the 757, no joke.

(mmm,,,errr, OK I think there's an RFT or Heyer 4" tweeter down there too, with a 4uf cap)
 

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Great stuff as always Early.
I would very interested in hearing more and experimenting with some of these unknown gems you refer to.
Thanks 😊
 
@hifitown
I can relate to your comments about elliptical full range drivers. When I was a kid, the family “hifi” was a Braun console—tubed receiver, turntable, and 3-way speaker system—mono of course and all contained in what would now be called a mid-century modern console cabinet. As a 13-year old interested in audio, I was surprised to find the cabinet had an open back, so the speakers were open baffle not in a sealed or vented cabinet, even though the bass sounded really good. I then noticed the elliptical woofer was running full range, no crossover components, so I tried disconnecting the midrange horn and tweeter horn. Bingo! The “woofer” by itself sounded better than when the midrange and tweeter were also running. Unfortunately my parents sold the console before we moved back to the States so all I have are my memories of how it sounded, but I suspect I would still like it today.
 
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I replaced some EV 12” coaxial on my deck(they didn’t like the outdoors) with some 6”x9” car speakers that came from somewhere?? They sound way better than I thought they should!
 
Thanks OpenBaffled! Doing audio for a living definitely puts limits on the fun videos and write-ups I like to do... I would love to do a book or some sort of disruptive manuscript on our adventures with these speakers – – but no time yet....work life balance, uggh.

And I don't know – – I really do have to give credit for all the other guys out there doing it like glow in the dark audio. It's so funny that he publicized many speakers we glossed over as either to obscure or not our cup O' tea.

As of late I've also been interesting in letting the dust settle – – on all of the new stuff that people are diving into. Even despite the pandemic – – costs are coming down for lots of interesting modern full range speakers in the 8 to 15 inch size range.
I will go on the record for saying that we tried many recent incarnations of stuff like this, and nothing came close to some of the best speakers like the Telefunken 8 inch or even some wildly odd elliptical speakers that you can grab it out of Great-Grandpa's Califone record player.

JE2A3 did a wonderful job posting my father Walt's old articles from AS, circa 1988 (which actually do cover some of the cream of the crop, speakers – – particularly the 755) -- that's just for background....
But there's so much else that we went on to learn working with cheaper finds by the 90s.
GlowIntheDark style type stuff, we published in the early 2000s AudioMart magazines at least a couple of articles. I'll be posting those on my website when I get it in better condition. It covers several of the really good German full range drivers including the RFT and the Telefunken's. Along with suggestions on doing a tall frame open baffle. Common stuff you see on the Internet nowadays – – but it was pretty freaky 20 years ago!

By the early 2000s Western Electric prices had gotten so high along with everything else – – we were really eager to introduce DIYers to "disruptive" retro-technology that was much cheaper and even more sensitive for FleaWatts (Class D amps were just coming out and we had other ideas with tubes and Germanium WE xstrs) – – nothing much more exquisite than some of these insanely detailed lightweight full range speakers. Back then Tele's, Grundig's and select US made speakers were super findable.

I'm a little frustrated by the disallusion of forgotten elliptical speakers these days -- it's because they were never discovered in the first place.. Technically the elliptical speaker is strangely advantageous especially for reproducing low frequencies on open baffle and in other circumstances --because of the space savings and other advantages – – they typically got thrown in cheap places giving them an automatic bad reputation...... The Ellipses might help with the gripes of some fellas who like a little bit of low end with their detail.. It's even been mentioned in some of the older speaker building journals as such. If you guys would like some odd recommendations on those let me know. Those are probably the very cheapest very most forgotten and very most excellent sound for the money!

Here is Walt Bender, circa, approx 2001, - HiEnd audio disruptor extraordinaire - with 2hr creation featuring a horn stollen from an Altec Magnificent... and (2) Oxfords (one of my favorite seldom-seen brands...)....funny pose as he was getting the wiring straight...
The goal was to demonstrate how excellent some of these full range wizard cone drivers can be – – next to the very best. Thereby offering DIY audio builders ( then still active in Japan) As I recall he threw the it together to test some things out as well as demo these particular units – – versus the crème de la crème WE757 our friend was coming to pick up.


You'd be utterly shocked at how well these two ellipticals performed versus the 757, no joke.

(mmm,,,errr, OK I think there's an RFT or Heyer 4" tweeter down there too, with a 4uf cap)
It’s fascinating how consumer expectations and product development/marketing divisions craft the idea of what is “good”. I’ve spent thousands of hours in pursuit of the perfect sound only to have my jaw drop when the right recording passes through my beater portable radio with one 4” full range. Conversely, I auditioned a $30k system at a audio showroom in DC that left me cold. We’ve all had those moments in the DIY world and that’s why, like Walter, we are open to unconventional drivers and speaker configurations. Frugality and a sincere appreciation for success within limited design parameters are another reason. I certainly don’t want to add to your “plate”, which seems full at the moment, but simply wanted to share my appreciation and interest in your knowledge. Im glad that your’re vetting those gorgeous FR drivers coming from China etc… they now are too expensive to take a chance on several in hopes of finding a winner. I’m a big fan of Wharfedale drivers and recall buying them for less than stamped frame sub grade pro-audio gear. That allowed me to experiment with little to no risk. I’m currently playing around with FC drivers like the 1929 RCA Victor with wood cones made in Vietnam.

The beauty of this approach is that the original cones are preserved as well as the surrounds and spider which is built into the cone as was the custom at the time. The chip amp and laptop are all I had to test since I’m moving and my gear is in storage.

Cheers
 
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On a lark, I was identifying somebody's mystery speaker over on FB. And thought this to be an appropriate addition to the American Speaker project thread.

To be fair, I was kind of keeping these under my hat – – hoping to find another set or two in time. However most of them have been thrown out. The few remaining units people are asking too much money for online to worry with. Besides that, I only ever ran into one really cool version (so be careful) – – here you go sleeper of the day ---

It's not very often, I give mention a sealed cabinet design (or lack of design in this case). This speaker breaks all the rules it's too small, it's completely sealed and it's basically some sort of twisted fate of consumer junk-ism – – Produced by a company who by then had completely lost their way in Audio (as had most by then). I think at many levels this product was an accident built by somebody who was actually listening... ie built by ear. To bring a set of these home – – you have to get through several levels of ickiness – – starting with the rear RCA connectors, and if you can suffer (or embrace) the style. Take a closer look you'll soon realize they are ridiculously heavy for their size, and are made from real wood; some thing that is exceedingly rare by this time....
Quoting a my FB post"

(Style aside) I believe it was made by general electric consumer products division. They made this configuration sometime in the early 1970s, part of the Acoustiphonic series... USA made primarily. Some of them are plain plastic cabinets – – with a really interesting (but cheap looking) composite material. But the earlier units were made out of lumber core plywood and other extremely surprisingly/shockingly high-quality materials. The internal components typically consisted of a US 6 inch CTS Woof paired with either a mid range and sometimes a Coral tweeter making it a 3 way... . If sound quality is of more concern than style.... efficiency and midrange are far and away better than most sealed speakers of their size. They are total sleepers.
One way to confirm the manufacturer, is by taking the backs off which should be bronze colored hex head tapping screws. Inside there should be a couple of sheets of weird green / blue fabric - denim based insulation.""
"I've known about these low end sleepers for a while...and have only run into one or two other types...neither sounded as nice as these..... First, a couple of corrections to my original... It was General Electric, Audio Products Division (I think), and GE's moniker for, basically stuffing, was dubbed, "Acoustaphonic". You can't generalize here. The 2 way plastic/urethane cab is not as good (not the fault of the cab), and I have no idea on the other types they did.. Really I only know the 3-way lumber-core version to have "special sound". This is due to a number of reasons I believe – – primarily a very simple and well-thought-out crossover consisting of only a small paper wax filter capacitor. The mid range and CTS high compliance woofer were left to play full range... a.k.a. "module" style and this contributes to better mid range clarity(a major flaw of most speakers that look like this). The carpentry was also ridiculously good (on this version, see link below, showing the spline-miter joints) This was some off-shoot or last ditch by GE to make it big in consumer HiFi. All this nice work, all to be sold with quickly forgotten 8-track consoles (the RCA jack connector is a major sign of consumer low-endiness, and takes many years of experience to overlook). This very dated style (which is getting interest once again...still icky to most) , was known as "Mediterranean" and/ or "Moorish"... Speakers like this, once were a dime-a-dozen aat thrift stores. No longer. 80-90% of all speakers like this, sounded low-end -- but they got something super right with these. Sound quality alone (not accounting their lower end brand / pedigree / lowly origin) they should demand (read "deserve") 150-$300 depending on who is listening... I am attaching a photo of some that passed through here once-upon a time. We compared them to other small / micro, tube amp friendly speakers (Tandberg, older B&W's, AR's, Yamaha NS-10's etc... and they kept up without a sweat, just not allot of whompass bass, be warned. Good midrange detail where it counts, and not too muddy. My internal photos, are sans the denim Acoustaphonic filler.
This may seem like an overly simplistic way to wire up a three-way system – – but in the right cabinet it works really, really well.... for those looking for realistic midrange (component dependent) of course) Whomever built these (for GE) was listening, that's for sure."

In conclusion, just spreading the word on these – – so that you don't pass them by at your next flea market or thrift store. Are they the best speakers in the world? Absolutely not. But they are nicely made and they are very small. Don't pass them up if you see them.

mediterranean3wayminib.jpg


More full size photos:


Close up of 16ohm internals...
 
Last edited:
On a lark, I was identifying somebody's mystery speaker over on FB. And thought this to be an appropriate addition to the American Speaker project thread.

To be fair, I was kind of keeping these under my hat – – hoping to find another set or two in time. However most of them have been thrown out. The few remaining units people are asking too much money for online to worry with. Besides that, I only ever ran into one really cool version (so be careful) – – here you go sleeper of the day ---

It's not very often, I give mention a sealed cabinet design (or lack of design in this case). This speaker breaks all the rules it's too small, it's completely sealed and it's basically some sort of twisted fate of consumer junk-ism – – Produced by a company who by then had completely lost their way in Audio (as had most by then). I think at many levels this product was an accident built by somebody who was actually listening... ie built by ear. To bring a set of these home – – you have to get through several levels of ickiness – – starting with the rear RCA connectors, and if you can suffer (or embrace) the style. Take a closer look you'll soon realize they are ridiculously heavy for their size, and are made from real wood; some thing that is exceedingly rare by this time....
Quoting a my FB post"

(Style aside) I believe it was made by general electric consumer products division. They made this configuration sometime in the early 1970s, part of the Acoustiphonic series... USA made primarily. Some of them are plain plastic cabinets – – with a really interesting (but cheap looking) composite material. But the earlier units were made out of lumber core plywood and other extremely surprisingly/shockingly high-quality materials. The internal components typically consisted of a US 6 inch CTS Woof paired with either a mid range and sometimes a Coral tweeter making it a 3 way... . If sound quality is of more concern than style.... efficiency and midrange are far and away better than most sealed speakers of their size. They are total sleepers.
One way to confirm the manufacturer, is by taking the backs off which should be bronze colored hex head tapping screws. Inside there should be a couple of sheets of weird green / blue fabric - denim based insulation.""
"I've known about these low end sleepers for a while...and have only run into one or two other types...neither sounded as nice as these..... First, a couple of corrections to my original... It was General Electric, Audio Products Division (I think), and GE's moniker for, basically stuffing, was dubbed, "Acoustaphonic". You can't generalize here. The 2 way plastic/urethane cab is not as good (not the fault of the cab), and I have no idea on the other types they did.. Really I only know the 3-way lumber-core version to have "special sound". This is due to a number of reasons I believe – – primarily a very simple and well-thought-out crossover consisting of only a small paper wax filter capacitor. The mid range and CTS high compliance woofer were left to play full range... a.k.a. "module" style and this contributes to better mid range clarity(a major flaw of most speakers that look like this). The carpentry was also ridiculously good (on this version, see link below, showing the spline-miter joints) This was some off-shoot or last ditch by GE to make it big in consumer HiFi. All this nice work, all to be sold with quickly forgotten 8-track consoles (the RCA jack connector is a major sign of consumer low-endiness, and takes many years of experience to overlook). This very dated style (which is getting interest once again...still icky to most) , was known as "Mediterranean" and/ or "Moorish"... Speakers like this, once were a dime-a-dozen aat thrift stores. No longer. 80-90% of all speakers like this, sounded low-end -- but they got something super right with these. Sound quality alone (not accounting their lower end brand / pedigree / lowly origin) they should demand (read "deserve") 150-$300 depending on who is listening... I am attaching a photo of some that passed through here once-upon a time. We compared them to other small / micro, tube amp friendly speakers (Tandberg, older B&W's, AR's, Yamaha NS-10's etc... and they kept up without a sweat, just not allot of whompass bass, be warned. Good midrange detail where it counts, and not too muddy. My internal photos, are sans the denim Acoustaphonic filler.
This may seem like an overly simplistic way to wire up a three-way system – – but in the right cabinet it works really, really well.... for those looking for realistic midrange (component dependent) of course) Whomever built these (for GE) was listening, that's for sure."

In conclusion, just spreading the word on these – – so that you don't pass them by at your next flea market or thrift store. Are they the best speakers in the world? Absolutely not. But they are nicely made and they are very small. Don't pass them up if you see them.

mediterranean3wayminib.jpg


More full size photos:


Close up of 16ohm internals...
Speaking of General Electric, Early, can you comment on their speaker efforts from back when driver production was still in-house?

The 850 and 1201A/1201D showed up on my radar recently, and I’m wondering if I shouldn’t go to the trouble of tracking down a pair.
 
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