Do you believe that our hobby is splitting?

kirk57

Junior Member
I like cilantro. A lot. But I recognize that much of the population doesn’t. I hear people say that it tastes like soap, and makes them want to wretch. And you know, whatever, live and let live.

Now, imagine that I’m running down my street, shoving great big wads of cilantro in my neighbors’ mouths. Some of them would think it was amusing, particularly if they were also cilantro fans. Some of them REALLY wouldn’t like it. Imagine if then, my attitude was “Whatever. I like cilantro. Fuck ‘em.”
Maybe you already knew this, but that has determined to be genetic: Why Does Cilantro Taste Like Soap to Some People?
 

JohnVF

Administrator
Staff member
Really though I think some people would be surprised how low surface noise can get. It takes some work in setup and gear quality to get there though. CD was a revelation when I first heard it. Now it’s just another equally viable option.
 

MikeyFresh

Moderator
Staff member
Turntable set up and clean records. Both are critical to vinyl playback.
Bingo, and in the early 1990s I got rid of my turntable and gave all of my LPs to my sister after becoming frustrated with not having the time, inclination, or wallet to do that right.

I knew it could be done right, various dealer demos, and even a few friends had the proof positive, but it was too difficult and expensive for me personally to want to continue its pursuit, digital was just far easier and cheaper, so I took the cheap and easy way out.

I accepted digital as a reasonable alternative at the time, and I'm not sorry I did, even though many CDs do sound like crap.
 

Fran604g

Just Call Me Junior
Interesting read. So it seems those folks who don't like it have a more keen sense of taste. A more refined palate, as it were.

Btw, I don't like cilantro.
This defines my wife (loves Cilantro) who has a pretty decent palate, and I (not so much), with a very refined one. Thanks to this thread we've been discussing the topic this morning. I told Sharon I could imagine her running down the street shoving cilantro into everyone's mouths.

I just don't like any flavor overwhelming a dish.
 

prime minister

Site Owner
Staff member
I don't think the hobby is splitting. I've been around audio forums for almost as long as there has been such and there has always been both camps. It has never made sense to me to judge people for what they like. The old adage "the heart wants what it wants" applies to more than just the affections of another person. Sometimes it may not make sense, but in the grand scheme of things it really just doesn't matter.
I like the sound of the exhaust on my Harley and I like the slight whistle of turbo coming through the exhaust on my truck. Both of those sounds cause some people to cover their ears and run for the hills. I don't find the reason for that needing definition or explanation. It is what it is. Live and let live. Like what you like with no regrets.
That's damn decent of you, sharing the beautiful, musical sounds of your Harley and your truck with the neighbours. Good man!
 
John, no need to get defensive. My statement stems from clients and friends trying to blend. You are an exception to the rule and that is awesome. In general, it is much tougher to blend vintage with new. I know on my journey I hit that wall and made a decision to pursue new.

When you get into highly modified vintage, you are playing a different game IMO.

I realize my statements have triggered some of you and I’d like to reinforce my last sentence in this statement. What I’ve seen on this forum is guys who look for improvement vs. simply replacing with similar components.

The issue I’ve run into with vintage is it doesn’t play nice with new gear due to the higher noise floor. Improvements in manufacturing, capacitors, resistors, power transformers, component isolation inside, vibration control implementations, internal wiring choices and design, and many other factors drop the noise floor significantly and allow better separation in the soundstage. When you modify vintage, you can begin to address some of these shortcomings. This includes things like phono carts etc.

For what it’s worth, there are also brands that I refuse to carry because they suffer the same issues. In the systems I build these shortcomings are very apparent and when clients try my pieces in vintage rigs, they are greatly hindered. We have had zero success integrating new and old unless the vintage pieces have some extra work and money poured into them.

This is NOT to say one way is wrong or the other. This is a hobby and should be fun, not maniacally correct. Much like tuners vs muscle, just do you and enjoy it.
 
Thanks for your interesting responses, everyone. A few random additional thoughts:

I still have my vinyl collection (about 400-500 LPs), mainly because of the strong nostalgic attachment - hell, I can still remember the day I bought a lot of those records. They're in very good condition, thanks to our family's early adoption of both a relatively low-damage stylus (for the period at least), and religious use of a Discwasher - even Mom knew the routine.

I have made attempts to revisit vinyl a couple of times over the years; first to see how it sounded with my newer, (much) better downstream gear, and later with a fairly respectable turntable, cart & phono stage in front. The first try was predictable; the second was a bit of a surprise at first, but ultimately disappointing again.

Jeez, sorry for the thread creep. I seem to have a knack for this.
 
That's damn decent of you, sharing the beautiful, musical sounds of your Harley and your truck with the neighbours. Good man!
Well I wasn't going to reply to the first response to my post, but since this is the second, I will. First, the context has nothing to do with neighbors, just what ones ears like. Second, I live on property in a very rural area of the central Oregon high desert and third, I have dual mufflers on the Harley, not straight pipes, and my diesel has a stock exhaust with both cat and muffler after the turbo. Neither of them are offensively loud, but I do like the tone of both of them.

I would like to thank you both, especially Mr. Frum for his prophecy in the second part of his post #6 about ill-informed vitriol and axe-grinding.
 
Well I wasn't going to reply to the first response to my post, but since this is the second, I will. First, the context has nothing to do with neighbors, just what ones ears like. Second, I live on property in a very rural area of the central Oregon high desert and third, I have dual mufflers on the Harley, not straight pipes, and my diesel has a stock exhaust with both cat and muffler after the turbo. Neither of them are offensively loud, but I do like the tone of both of them.

I would like to thank you both, especially Mr. Frum for his prophecy in the second part of his post #6 about ill-informed vitriol and axe-grinding.
And I liked the sound of the Mustang GT350 with the 5.2-liter flat-plane-crank engine. Music to my ears without being obnoxious.
 
...I have dual mufflers on the Harley, not straight pipes, and my diesel has a stock exhaust with both cat and muffler after the turbo. Neither of them are offensively loud, but I do like the tone of both of them.

As one who lives on a busy street, I thank you sincerely for being an adult with regard to your equipment choices. And as a rare exception to the rule in this regard, I hope you can extend a bit of slack to those of us who may sometimes jump to conclusions.
 

JohnVF

Administrator
Staff member
I realize my statements have triggered some of you and I’d like to reinforce my last sentence in this statement. What I’ve seen on this forum is guys who look for improvement vs. simply replacing with similar components.

The issue I’ve run into with vintage is it doesn’t play nice with new gear due to the higher noise floor. Improvements in manufacturing, capacitors, resistors, power transformers, component isolation inside, vibration control implementations, internal wiring choices and design, and many other factors drop the noise floor significantly and allow better separation in the soundstage. When you modify vintage, you can begin to address some of these shortcomings. This includes things like phono carts etc.

For what it’s worth, there are also brands that I refuse to carry because they suffer the same issues. In the systems I build these shortcomings are very apparent and when clients try my pieces in vintage rigs, they are greatly hindered. We have had zero success integrating new and old unless the vintage pieces have some extra work and money poured into them.

This is NOT to say one way is wrong or the other. This is a hobby and should be fun, not maniacally correct. Much like tuners vs muscle, just do you and enjoy it.
You can relax, I’m not “triggered”. I and others merely have an experience with (certain) vintage gear that disagrees with yours.
 
Both of those sounds cause some people to cover their ears and run for the hills. I don't find the reason for that needing definition or explanation. It is what it is. Live and let live. Like what you like with no regrets.
Absent this, I doubt your earlier post would've rubbed anybody the wrong way.
Just sayin'. :)
 

Audionut

Next Round Is On Me
Well I wasn't going to reply to the first response to my post, but since this is the second, I will. First, the context has nothing to do with neighbors, just what ones ears like. Second, I live on property in a very rural area of the central Oregon high desert and third, I have dual mufflers on the Harley, not straight pipes, and my diesel has a stock exhaust with both cat and muffler after the turbo. Neither of them are offensively loud, but I do like the tone of both of them.

I would like to thank you both, especially Mr. Frum for his prophecy in the second part of his post #6 about ill-informed vitriol and axe-grinding.
Thanks for giving more detail (not that you needed to of course). I really like the sound of both; turbo and a good exhaust. I’ve driven a few muscle, tuner and super cars and each have their stars.
Now removing the cat/muffler and having an obnoxiously loud/ear piercing sound and revving it when they go through a tunnel.....
 

JohnVF

Administrator
Staff member
Speaking of which I’m finally back home and might actually have time to get the TTS-8000 up and running. So that’s a nearly 40 year old turntable which will be run with a 35? year old tonearm, with a new cart into very old step up transformers turn into a modern phono pre with vintage tubes. Kind of hopping from vintage to modern to vintage to modern. None of it modded ...but restored.
 
I realize my statements have triggered some of you and I’d like to reinforce my last sentence in this statement. What I’ve seen on this forum is guys who look for improvement vs. simply replacing with similar components.

The issue I’ve run into with vintage is it doesn’t play nice with new gear due to the higher noise floor. Improvements in manufacturing, capacitors, resistors, power transformers, component isolation inside, vibration control implementations, internal wiring choices and design, and many other factors drop the noise floor significantly and allow better separation in the soundstage. When you modify vintage, you can begin to address some of these shortcomings. This includes things like phono carts etc.

For what it’s worth, there are also brands that I refuse to carry because they suffer the same issues. In the systems I build these shortcomings are very apparent and when clients try my pieces in vintage rigs, they are greatly hindered. We have had zero success integrating new and old unless the vintage pieces have some extra work and money poured into them.

This is NOT to say one way is wrong or the other. This is a hobby and should be fun, not maniacally correct. Much like tuners vs muscle, just do you and enjoy it.
Wow man. I cannot stand the word "trigger", it's a Karen word.

What the past 7 pages of responses have shown is that you need to expand your reference base.

Many people would argue capacitors have not gotten better (in terms of sound), they may last longer, but that's different.

"In the systems I build these shortcomings are very apparent and when clients try my pieces in vintage rigs, they are greatly hindered. We have had zero success integrating new and old unless the vintage pieces have some extra work and money poured into them."

The above statement simply does not hold water...come on...are you trying to say never? Like never ever ever???? You speak in absolutes and thats not reality.

It reads like you are trying to say that you can't install a new modern piece of gear into a mostly vintage system and have success or the opposite...and again both of which just don't hold water. I rarely get this involved in many discussions, but this type of talk is what leads to division.

I ain't mad at ya, the offer still stands, come by post covid, prepare to have your mind blown, horizons expanded and a whole new world revealed, because (now I am going to speak in absolutes), 100% new and old can coexist and make magic (and the stuff doesn't need to be modded at ALL)!
 
I am wondering where the threshold for vintage currently sits? I just can't imagine my vintage (to me anyway) C34V not integrating with the newer McIntosh amps such as the MC312 and the MC462.
 
For me, having front-panel controls that are actually in the audio path seems like a good line of demarcation these days, but...I dunno.
 
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