Hi End T/T sound better than SACD

D

Derek Nicholls

Hi, I was browsing our local auction site & spotted the SME30/2, selling for a crazy NZ118,000. The retail cost here is NZ$110,000!!! 9no I don't have enough to buy it
:embarrassed:
) Anyway I though I would check out what the reviews say & I came across this interesting roundup from Stereophile mas

https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=Awr...urntable/RK=2/RS=dNU_.S5ABO84ljTa03zEEXgGyKg-

My review sample of the SME Model 30/2 came with the SME IV.Vi tonearm, which I covered in the SME 10 review in the April 2000 issue, so I won't repeat myself here. But I did get hold of a Graham armboard so I could try two arms. Rick Rosen was visiting when I decided to make the switch. We listened to the SME IV.Vi for a while, then auditioned the Graham 2.2. One of the records we played was a test pressing of the vinyl edition of Alison Krauss's Forget About It (Diverse DIV 002LP), cut from a DSD master. We compared that to the SACD (Rounder 11661-0465-6) on the recently arrived combo of dCS's Elgar Plus DAC, Purcell upsampler, and Verdi SACD transport (currently under review).
Interestingly, the Graham 2.2 (with Lyra Titan cartridge) more closely resembled the SACD than did the SME IV.Vi. Both the SACD and the vinyl through the pairing of Graham 2.2 and SME 30/2 revealed a pleasant, warm cushion behind Krauss's voice. The SME IV.Vi dried that out a bit, giving the overall sound the precise "skeletal" harmonic quality, from midbass to upper midrange, that I'd complained of in the SME 10 review.
In any case, while both arms sounded great on the SME 30/2, Rick and I agreed that, if we were buying an SME 30/2 for my system, we'd go for the Graham 2.2. Detractors of unipivot arms would say that the Graham's inability to control bass energy was adding the warmth we heard and preferred, but we heard it on the SACD too. That was good enough for us.

Interesting

Cheers

 
While I cannot speak to what the reviewer stated. I will say this, Graham makes a damned fine tonearm. Even if he did “borrow” heavily from AudioCraft in his design. Purely my own opinion mind you. My time with the Graham really helped me form my preferred presentation for my vinyl playback.
 
So many audio variables, yet so little time left to listen.

As I am 69, I guess I will stick my SACDs, and my DSD rips, and be very happy with that excellent sound quality, and save myself the $legwork$.
 
even a pretty decent quality TT setup with a great LP will sound better than SACD. Digital wins 90% of the time, that 10% Vinyl wins is pure audio magic.
 
a close friend has a very resolving system (at that point mccormick amp, lamb tube pre and big theils); he was trying to decide between digital and TT. he had a nice VPI plus fancy tube TT pre. digital was nice transport and bel canto DAC.

i brought over various albums where i had both the CD and the record. some times the TT sounded better, some times the DAC.

🤷‍♂️
 
rogerfederer said:
a close friend has a very resolving system (at that point mccormick amp, lamb tube pre and big theils); he was trying to decide between digital and TT. he had a nice VPI plus fancy tube TT pre. digital was nice transport and bel canto DAC.

i brought over various albums where i had both the CD and the record. some times the TT sounded better, some times the DAC.

🤷‍♂️
Click to expand...

By the title of this thread you'd think your post and some of the preceding posts are fully on topic, however in reading the OP I am fully confused as to why the thread was named as it was, or what the actual topic is.

The OP only talks about 2 different tonearms and the sonic differences between them when employed on the SME 30/2 turntable. The OP then goes on to reference a 2003 review of that turntable that appeared in Stereophile magazine, as well as quote a portion of that review. At no time in either the OP or the linked review is there any talk whatsoever of a high end turntable sounding better than SACD. That thread title is further puzzling because it mentions a piece of hardware (a high end turntable) sounding better than a physical media format (SACD). Huh? Wouldn't that logically need to be either LP vs. SACD, or Turntable vs. SACD player?

I'd say this thread is click bait intended to reignite the old pointless analog vs. digital argument, but it's hard to even say that when reading the OP only to learn that linked 2003 review compares the Graham 2.2 arm fitted with a Lyra Titan cartridge to an SME IV.Vi arm fitted with a Sumiko Celebration cartridge.

Not only was that decidedly not an apple-to-apples analog comparison by Mr. Fremer all those years ago, but the one single mention of any comparison to an SACD (as played on a dCS Elgar/Purcell combo) is only in the context of comparing it to a test pressing of the same album as played on those two turntable/arm/cart combos, concluding that LP test pressing sounded more like the SACD when played back on the Graham/Lyra combo than the SME/Sumiko combo did, and that was deemed a good thing, more pleasant and warm with the Graham/Lyra combo vs. a bit more dry and "skeletal" with the SME/Sumiko combination. Probably not Mr. Fremer's best ever work, but OK.

How the heck do we get from there to "Hi End T/T sound better than SACD" as a thread title? I'll answer my own question, we don't, not unless I am missing something obvious in which case I will be happy to both stand corrected, and better informed.

The old analog vs. digital argument, circa 2003 no less, the burnt embers of that debate now stoked anew... the enduring flame war? I think not.

Nota bene: Mikey Fremer's 2003 article assertion that "a proper reading of analog vs digital specs confirms what vinyl enthusiasts hear: LPs do have wider dynamic range" is pure bullshit.
 
Derek Nicholls said:
Yep, That may be the case, until your hi-end CD/SACD player draw won't open, like mine will not now!!

Cheers
Click to expand...

Nope, those SACDs have been ripped to .DSF track files playable by any modern DAC through various playback software including Roon, Audirvana, JRiver, LMS, Foobar etc... since 2011, first using the PS3 ripping method, and since 2016 even easier when using the Blu-ray player method.

ROPM - aka Rip Once Play Many.
 
Couldn’t follow the OP beyond the title….but my experience related to the title is—it depends :chinfor instance my vinyl copy of “Stop Making Since” is much better than the my SACD version…that experience isn’t prevalent but it happens.

I’d say on the whole SACD is generally better or at least equal to quality vinyl on a good high resolution system, with exceptions ;)

Most of my vinyl is very high quality stuff so that also kinda skews any comparison to other formats, however some wouldn’t consider my play back components “High End” so the point is moot 😂
 
Hi, There is no reason for the blog, apart from the chilling realization, is you spent $110,000 on a T/T then you can expect to receive several years later around 18,000!!
Also that even at that cost the arm can be easily bettered by a Uni-Pivot no less.

The rest is just what I saw in a review & though interesting about it's sound compared to SACD.

Cheers
 
Derek Nicholls said:
Hi, There is no reason for the blog, apart from the chilling realization, is you spent $110,000 on a T/T then you can expect to receive several years later around 18,000!!
Also that even at that cost the arm can be easily bettered by a Uni-Pivot no less.

The rest is just what I saw in a review & though interesting about it's sound compared to SACD.

Cheers
Click to expand...
Have no clue what that table is worth but it’s history and why someone is asking that price might explain some of it :dunno

You’ll have to provide some extremely convincing/credible receipts regarding that last Uni-Pivot claim :chin
 
Hi, No I am not trying to start a debate, just information The unit is indeed about 15 years old, but I was shocked by the new price as the arm originally sold for around $NZ8,000.
For some strange reason this is the only site to add comments.

Cheers
 
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