FYI I got scammed using PayPal Friends and Family

For Your Information
Hey folks,

It happened right here in the Emporium. A member contacted me about my WTB ad for some Altec crossovers.
Said he had a pair, the price was good so I followed up.
He wanted me to use Friends and Family. I resisted, telling him that was frowned upon here.
After some back and forth, I agreed. He has his own for sale ad here, I had seen him in a couple Altec related posts, so I bit.
He sent me photos etc.
Long story short, he got my money, came up with a big cock and bull story about getting hacked and lost his money etc etc, then went silent.
I began sleuthing around and found the photos were from an eBay listing. In New York. I thought this guy was in Alaska.
Also found the same guy, same photo on DIY audio, where he was banned. He was trying to sell Altec 802-8G drivers.

Moral of the story here, is no buyer protection when using Friends and Family. And of course, PayPal doesn't get paid.
I guess another moral, crooks exist in the audio world too.

Prime Minister has all the pertinent info, I'll leave all that to him.

Ron
 
Ross, a sucker is born every minute. Its what commerce lives on.
THere are a few honest traders around, but becomming endangered.
I am old, but I am honest, at least I try.

I think you have just learned a VERY MODERN lesson that hurts.
You remember busting the axe handle on yer old mans axe, and then denying it ?.
Dont be mad at me !!!. Just be very careful in future.
I DONT do Friends and Family. ALWAYS through Paypal ( yukk, spew, vomit ).
BUT its money back guaranteed.

Get my drift ?.

With my sympathies

Joe
 
I bought something on here in the past year, the seller got very upset with me when I said I would cover the paypal fees so that I could pay without using PP F&F. They basically told me, take the item via F&F or don't take it. When I asked why, they didn't want to get hit with the new over $600 per year tax limit on online sales, thus they would get a tax form from PP.
Understandable, but I too am weary of getting caught in what you did. Thank you for bringing this public.
If people are looking for totally free ways of advertising their items to thousands of online viewers and pay nothing when they sell it, I feel they are expecting too much. Just my $.02 worth.
 
I bought a very large collection of SACDs from a list member on another forum. It was a fair amount of money. I paid using the full blown Paypal and I marked it up enough so that the seller did not have to pay the fees. (the collection was a screaming bargain so I didn't mind). The seller asked me why I bothered to pay it. I sort of ignored his question but it was because I did not know the person at all and he was not a frequent poster on the forum though he had been a member there for a long time (which may be a good indicator of safety)

I did buy a second collection from someone and used friends and family. The seller did not request that. But I knew him and had corresponded with him multiple times and bought discs from him previously. I was satisfied it was safe because I actually did consider him a friend. I actually feel that way about the first guy now too.

The experience of @blueglow (love your YT videos) is likely to become more common, because people don't want to complicate their tax returns over selling something they bought a long time ago and didn't save the purchase receipt. Perhaps that is why my first seller commented back to me. I guess I have inadvertently complicated his tax return.
 
I bought a very large collection of SACDs from a list member on another forum. It was a fair amount of money. I paid using the full blown Paypal and I marked it up enough so that the seller did not have to pay the fees. (the collection was a screaming bargain so I didn't mind). The seller asked me why I bothered to pay it. I sort of ignored his question but it was because I did not know the person at all and he was not a frequent poster on the forum though he had been a member there for a long time (which may be a good indicator of safety)

I did buy a second collection from someone and used friends and family. The seller did not request that. But I knew him and had corresponded with him multiple times and bought discs from him previously. I was satisfied it was safe because I actually did consider him a friend. I actually feel that way about the first guy now too.

The experience of @blueglow (love your YT videos) is likely to become more common, because people don't want to complicate their tax returns over selling something they bought a long time ago and didn't save the purchase receipt. Perhaps that is why my first seller commented back to me. I guess I have inadvertently complicated his tax return.
I have used F&F many, many times over the years, but in cases only involving folks I actually know personally or through a close personal friend/associate. I've never gotten burned, but I'm exceedingly cautious.
 
The reason we all have this problem (of the tax man getting interesting in online transactions) is because of the success of online sales.
When ebay was a place to buy and sell kewl used gear (of many types and varieties) it was more wonderful than it has become.
Although I have to say that in my job repairing scientific gear I bought a LOT of parts that were unobtanium through ebay. It keeps lots of stuff out of landfills and recycles a lot.

I don't think I ever gave Paypal my social security number. I quit Microsoft Messenger which I greatly enjoyed using when they wanted my birthdate.

I used to buy a lot of stuff (mainly optical and scientific gear) on ebay and I consider the rate of "stinker" transactions to be about 0.2%
 
I have to say that in my job repairing scientific gear I bought a LOT of parts that were unobtanium through ebay. It keeps lots of stuff out of landfills and recycles a lot.
I always thought it was just urban legend, but I recall hearing that NASA resorted to eBay to find replacements for obsolete parts for the space shuttle towards the end of program. Your comment makes me think that might have actually been true.
 
My wife got burned on a $120 purchase using F&F on FB, never again. I’ve been selling online for decades, and paying taxes on it every year, so the $600 limit is no big deal to me; I’ve been declaring the income on my own via a Schedule C and paying FICA and Medicare too.

IDK, if the IRS is going to change that insanely low $600 annual gross limit, or provide a separate schedule to accommodate online sales of personal property, with appropriate lines for costs and expenses, but this is a new reality and folks are going to get used to it. If I don’t know you well, you aren’t getting any F&F monies from me, and I’ll probably report you to PayPal too as a fraud and a cheat if you request/require it because you are.
 
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I had an issue a few weeks back with Paypal. I sent someone that I DO know a payment via F&F , but they made a mistake when they gave me their email address.. I sent the payment as needed but to the wrong person. Paypal couldn't help. No protection. I had to contact my bank and Paypal several times. Finally I just emailed the wrong email address a few notes stating that the money was sent in error. After several attempts, the preson refunded the $$. Whew~
 
If I don’t know you well, you aren’t getting any F&F monies from me, and I’ll probably report you to PayPal too as a fraud and a cheat if you request/require it because you are.
not sure why a seller who 1) does not want to deal with the tax implications (and thats all they are) and/or does not want to be scammed by a bad buyer (has happened to me a number of times), is a "fraud and a cheat."
 
not sure why a seller who 1) does not want to deal with the tax implications (and thats all they are) and/or does not want to be scammed by a bad buyer (has happened to me a number of times), is a "fraud and a cheat."
Easy. First he's not a friend, therefore a fraud, and avoiding paying taxes on a possible profit and violating Paypal's TOA to avoid their fees makes him a cheat. I used to pay a lot of Paypal fees for cash processing, now eBay gets them, but it's a cost of doing business and needs to be factored in.

To pay a couple bucks, maybe to access an international marketplace and get your money in a few days, plus access to discounted shipping, is a service I'm glad to pay for. Compared to waiting on a check, depositing it, waiting for it to "clear", which still can get charged back, Paypal was a godsend.
 
IDK, if the IRS is going to change that insanely low $600 annual gross limit, or provide a separate schedule to accommodate online sales of personal property, with appropriate lines for costs and expenses, but this is a new reality and folks are going to get used to it. If I don’t know you well, you aren’t getting any F&F monies from me, and I’ll probably report you to PayPal too as a fraud and a cheat if you request/require it because you are.

Well said sir. And if the Haven continues it’s ‘No F&F’ policy and you as the Seller insist on trying to badger the buyer into using F&F then
just go someplace else. Don’t sell here.
 
Its been a while now, but i have been scammed several times as a seller by buyers who make a fraudulent claim to paypal and paypal just automatically gave them the benefit of the doubt and took the money back from me. so yeah i love it when a buyer pays in F&F. as a buyer, and a non-scammer, i would not pay a stranger in F&F. a dichotomy - but thats how it is.
 
I also had a scam-y seeming response to a wanted to buy, i was looking for a particular speaker. A forum member with one or two posts contacted me saying he would ship me a large speaker cabinet from Alaska. No shipping costs. Just a very almost too good to be true cost. I asked for recent pictures and he sent me photos from an old expired Canuck Audio Mart post. He said he wanted payment by F&F, and I told him I'd be willing to pay by regular payment with an added fee from my end but he then offered to lower the cost desperately if I paid by F&F. He wasn't willing to send new pictures. Forum member name was: "hallmal". I reported this to the mods.

Beware out there!

Jonas
 
That’s the problem with these scammers; they view online trade forums as low hanging fruit. That’s why some forums require a certain number of posts, replies, or time aboard before one can sell there.

I have no tolerance for online scammers and hope karma pays them back many times over.

Years ago at work, I discovered a shortage on an expensive camera. I traced it to a guy who pulled it off the floor, and snuck it to Returns and got a Cash Card refund on it as he had no receipt; he said it was a “gift”. Our Sales Auditor heard me discussing it with our manager and informs us that since I had the transaction and card number, she could pull the money back and zero out the card. We looked at each other, then her and simultaneously said “Do it!.” Less than 5 minutes later, we had the full balance back, and the crook had a worthless card. I tell that story a lot and always add that I hope he sold it to the baddest dude on the street, who took care of the crook for selling him a worthless card.
 
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Sorry to hear about your bad experience, Ron.

I'd encourage everyone here to contribute to the Positive Seller/Buyer Emporium thread. If enough of us do this we could potentially end up with a fairly comprehensive list of trustworthy Haven sellers and buyers. And were this to exist it could come in especially handy when contemplating a purchase from the Emporium, so as to possibly avoid bad experiences like Ron's. At the very least, it would let you know to take extra caution with those sellers who are missing from the thread. Just a thought, but...

Consider your positive contributions there as a middle finger to the bad guys.
 
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