ICE fans … it’s over. Soon electric vehicles could charge faster than your iPhone (Washington Post)

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Electric vehicle charging time could fall to 10 minutes within 5 years - The Washington Post 8/27/22, 1:11 PM

Soon electric vehicles could
charge faster than your
iPhone
If perfected, the method could charge an electric vehicle’s battery 90 percent within ten minutes, solving an issue skeptics have long had about electric vehicles.
By Pranshu Verma
August 27, 2022 at 6:00 a.m. EDT
For many Americans, electric vehicles are alluring up until the point they think about taking it on a long road trip.
A gas powered car will likely let them drive a median of 400 miles on a full tank — and a refill takes minutes. A full charge on an electric vehicle is more likely get them somewhere between 200 to 300 miles, and could take upward of 15 to 3o minutes of charging before hitting the road again.
That’s one of the major challenge facing politicians and car companies attempting to increase electric vehicle adoption: a skeptical consumer base willing to find any reason to not make the switch.
In a report released this week, government researchers said they have found a way to charge electric car batteries up to 90 percent in just 10 minutes. The method is likely five years away from making its way into the market, scientists said, but would mark a fundamental shift.
“The goal is to get very, very close to [times] you would see at the gas pump,” said Eric Dufek, a lead author of the study and scientist at the Idaho National Laboratory, a research center run by the Department of Energy.
The report comes as the Biden administration takes on a daunting task: trying to wean America off gas-guzzling cars and push them toward electric vehicles. Though billions of government dollars are being poured into the effort, electric vehicles are still seen as elitist, unreliable and cumbersome to charge — making people hesitant to change.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/tech...23657e626a7f|A7429228BF9C2381E0530100007F73FA Page 1 of 3

Electric vehicle charging time could fall to 10 minutes within 5 years - The Washington Post 8/27/22, 1:11 PM
Currently, car manufacturers and public charging stations use multiple kinds of chargers that offer varying levels of recharge times.
The slowest, known as level 1 chargers, can recharge an electric vehicle battery in 40 to 5o hours, according to the U.S. Department of Transportation. Some of the fastest, known as direct current chargers, can charge a battery up to 80 percent in 20 minutes to an hour.
Tesla’s vast supercharger network can provide 200 miles of charge in 15 minutes, the company said. But the equipment it uses makes it off limits to other electric vehicles in the United States. (Later this year, Tesla will release supercharging equipment that non-Tesla drivers can use, the White House said in a June statement.)
But the race to super charge electric vehicles has faced obstacles over the past decade. At issue is the delicate balance of trying to charge an electric vehicle battery quicker, but not doing it so fast that a rapid charge does long-term damage to the battery or plays a role in causing them to explode. Charging electric batteries fast can cause damage, reducing the battery’s life span and performance, scientists said.
“You’ve had batteries when you first got it, they were great, but after a couple years or a few charge cycles, they don’t perform as well,” said Eric D. Wachsman, director of the Maryland Energy Innovation Institute, an energy research organization at the University of Maryland.
To try to solve this, Dufek and his team used machine learning to figure out how batteries age when charging fast. Their algorithm was trained to analyze 20,000 to 30,000 data points which indicated how well the battery was charging and whether it was aging or degrading.
The methods they’ve found can charge an electric vehicle battery up to 90 percent in 10 minutes, Dufek said, but they hope to do better. In the next five years, Dufek’s team is striving to find a way to charge batteries up to 20 miles per minute, far surpassing the performance of top performing super chargers, which hover around 10 to 15 miles per minute.
“I think we can get there,” Dufek said.
Wachsman said the new research is helpful for the field. “Not too fast, not too slow,” he said of Dufek’s charging approach. “It’s just right in that Goldilocks [zone].”
But the bigger benefit, he said, would be if this method spurs car companies to make electric vehicles with smaller batteries, since they’d now have batteries that could be charged quicker and allow consumers to feel less worried about stopping periodically to get a quick recharge.
“Smaller batteries are cheaper cars,” he said.
There are other problems facing the industry. J.D. Power and Associates said many electric vehicle customers aren’t satisfied with public charging stations, notably because units malfunction or are out of service.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/tech...23657e626a7f|A7429228BF9C2381E0530100007F73FA Page 2 of 3

Electric vehicle charging time could fall to 10 minutes within 5 years - The Washington Post 8/27/22, 1:11 PM

“Everyone knows that the landscape of gas stations is focused on convenience — readily available, fast fueling and quick convenience items,” Brent Gruber, executive director of global automotive at J.D. Power said in a statement. “No matter how fast their vehicle charges, EV owners still indicate they need more options for things to do during each charging session to enhance convenience and fill the down time.”
Marc Geller, a spokesman for the Electric Vehicle Association, an industry nonprofit, said that it’s largely a perception that quicker charging times are a large barrier for customers to not purchase electric vehicles. “That perception is obviously both true and largely irrelevant,” he said. The larger issue, Geller added, was that demand is outstripping supply.
Most consumers, he said, will opt to charge their cars at home, given that it’s more convenient and less expensive than public charging stations, which charge more for power than utility companies.
“There is just nothing more reliable or lower cost than charging at home,” Geller said.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/tech...23657e626a7f|A7429228BF9C2381E0530100007F73FA Page 3 of 3
 
There is so much missing from that. The infrastructure needed to run something like that is just incredible. To be honest, it's incredibly irresponsible of them to make a 5 year claim on something like that. 20 years and trillions of dollars and we are talking. If they are lucky.

And it's sad to see that the Washington Post has fallen to such a level that they are now publishing absolute bullshit.
 
There is so much missing from that. The infrastructure needed to run something like that is just incredible. To be honest, it's incredibly irresponsible of them to make a 5 year claim on something like that. 20 years and trillions of dollars and we are talking. If they are lucky.

And it's sad to see that the Washington Post has fallen to such a level that they are now publishing absolute bullshit.
The capacity is available.

Assume an 80 kW battery
To charge it in 15 minutes 320 kW.
Obviously not feasible at home.
But at a 'gas' station you could do 4 cars on a 2 MVA xfmr.
And that could easily be constructed.

The knowledge is important.
Instead of 15 minutes, 4 hours at home, 20 kW, most services are 25 KVA.

Or smart chargers.
Sequence charging between homes using cellular and smart meters.

I would see the main use being public transport or service vehicles ((USPS, UPS, etc)

But 90% of personal use, overnight home charging. 10 kW or less

I mean how far does the average person drive/day? 40 miles.
With 200-250 range, not an issue.
 
The capacity is available.

Assume an 80 kW battery
To charge it in 15 minutes 320 kW.
Obviously not feasible at home.
But at a 'gas' station you could do 4 cars on a 2 MVA xfmr.
And that could easily be constructed.

The knowledge is important.
Instead of 15 minutes, 4 hours at home, 20 kW, most services are 25 KVA.

Or smart chargers.
Sequence charging between homes using cellular and smart meters.

I would see the main use being public transport or service vehicles ((USPS, UPS, etc)

But 90% of personal use, overnight home charging. 10 kW or less

I mean how far does the average person drive/day? 40 miles.
With 200-250 range, not an issue.
The transformer capacity doesn't exist. Right now, the industry just keeps up with new construction, with even maintenance needs being delayed now.
Even if the transformer capacity exists, the wiring capacity to get it there doesn't. The North American electrical grid is old, and never designed to run those loads to the places where we want them to be. Gas stations currently don't use much more electricity then the average home. Most gas stations don't only have 4 pumps but 8-16. And there are often competing stations across the street with 16 more pumps.

I just went through a 10 bay Tesla Supercharger installation, and it was a multi year project to set it up and get it running.
 
Carl from AK was just commenting on this article about the accidental discoveries that are happening in battery development.

TBS, I have no idea if BIGTHINK is a legitimate site or just another BIGBS?

Definitely things are happening. But the media is treating these as if they are near term production possibilities, rather then intriguing scientific experiments, which is what they really are. It just isn't anywhere close to production reality.

Realistically, we are discussing the modern day equivalent of the 100 mpg carburetor.
 
10 year forecasts are jokes at best. Compare any Federal budget projections to reality two years later and you'll see a crummy baseball player has a better average..."Could" is about as meaningless as "potential"

BTW, those are going to need some big ass wires. Forklift chargers at Costco use like 1/0 gauge cables for overnight charges, you'd be lucky to be able to lift a cable that can charge a car in 10 minutes...
 
The transformer capacity doesn't exist. Right now, the industry just keeps up with new construction, with even maintenance needs being delayed now.
Even if the transformer capacity exists, the wiring capacity to get it there doesn't. The North American electrical grid is old, and never designed to run those loads to the places where we want them to be. Gas stations currently don't use much more electricity then the average home. Most gas stations don't only have 4 pumps but 8-16. And there are often competing stations across the street with 16 more pumps.

I just went through a 10 bay Tesla Supercharger installation, and it was a multi year project to set it up and get it running.
The US has the generating capacity.
Capacity 1.14 TW
0.45 TW average consumption
Peaking ~150% or 75 TW

The average residential home has capacity to charge over night
200 A service at 240 V ~ 48 kVA

My average usage ~ 2 kVA
Peak perhaps 20 kVA (AC, fridge, dryer, WH)
The grid is aged. But one tech has given it capacity FACTS and DC transmission.
And higher voltages.

It has to be done smart, engineers, not politicians, science, not ideology,

It took 2 years to build a structure and install battery chargers? Or are you talking about planning, permitting, land acquisition, funding sources, etc.
But even that seems long?

A mine recently built this in a year:
5 MW substation
2 MW genset
VFD in a building with cooling
2000 HP fan building and fan housing
12' dia x 900' deep concrete encased shaft
Extending the primary 34.5 kV line 1/4 mile
Procuring the land and site prep

The sub alone:
34.5/4160
Prim vcb
2 sec vcb, mine and surface power each with a vcb
Over head steel structure
Grounding bed is 50' x 80', .<2 Ohm

Where there is a will, there is a way.
It's going to happen. It will not be stopped.
How well depends on how well we work together.

Charge at night
Typical diurnal profile

1-Average-hourly-electricity-consumption-2006-and-2007-spring-EDST-periods-Boston.png
 
10 year forecasts are jokes at best. Compare any Federal budget projections to reality two years later and you'll see a crummy baseball player has a better average..."Could" is about as meaningless as "potential"

BTW, those are going to need some big ass wires. Forklift chargers at Costco use like 1/0 gauge cables for overnight charges, you'd be lucky to be able to lift a cable that can charge a car in 10 minutes...
80 kW is 80 kW
Time does not matter
Only the voltage and load.
A battery has very low R, so large current.
Typical V 400, some as high as 800
80 kW / 400 V ~ 200 A
DC so no inductive heating or pf considerations..
It will start off higher and decrease but average heating per cycle will be the same.


1/0 2c portable power cable will do.
1.2-1.5 lb/ft, flexible jacket.
It will need tethered or festooned, like a gas pump. 1.5" diameter.

320 kW is not realistic unless V increases.
Perhaps trucks, buses, etc.

Battery vehicles are common in mining, charged underground.

0CD13FA3-F773-46B0-9DAC-27A927170755.jpeg
 
I know this, I'm getting a piece of the action. I've been reading up on the subject.
-interesting
-related to my job, so get paid to do it
-I have an LLC EE consulting firm, I do side work. When I retire this will be in full swing.
I decline work now , big projects, since I work full time. When I retire I will chase work.

I see no problems, only solutions and opportunity.
Bring it on.
 
BTW, those are going to need some big ass wires. Forklift chargers at Costco use like 1/0 gauge cables for overnight charges, you'd be lucky to be able to lift a cable that can charge a car in 10 minutes...

Hey, just wondering if you know what type of batteries the Costco Forklifts used?
 
Hey, just wondering if you know what type of batteries the Costco Forklifts used?
Pretty much some massive lead acid ones. They take up most of the lift area over the front wheels. I quit driving years ago as they wanted so many hours/week driving and I had no time to do that so I let it lapse. We used to have to swap them out on trolleys with come alongs; what a joy that was. This looks about right....

FWIW, my comment was not so much about the battery, but the infrastructure to flow enough juice to charge a car in 10 minutes. Think of it as water and how fast it takes to fill a vessel. I can fill my swimming pool overnight, but to do it in a couple hours I need to 10x my flow rate. Electricity is pretty much the same.

What sort of wire do home charging ports require? I'd be stunned if it was 12 gauge.

1661737101399.png
 
Home chargers with NEMA 14-50 outlets look to use #8 wire for 40A service. I see Ingenieur has posted gas station hose size 1/0 cable, 400/800V and 200A service, which is basically the entire service in a lot of upgraded home panels, can do overnight, so what does 10 minutes require? Those service stations are literally going to have to have lightning in a bottle to pull off 10 minutes.
I doubt our wire grid is able to deliver 1/10 of the power that sort of charging would require. I'm not saying we can't get there, but the logistics of this massive upgrade are so far beyond what our politicians can deliver it's stupefying. It took them 14 years to plan the I-75 modernization of maybe 25 miles of interstate here in Detroit and an estimated 20 years to complete it; good luck with rebuilding the national power grid in the next 100 years...
 
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@Ingenieur - how much does residential solar w/ net metering help with electrical infrastructure load / capacity?
Well, I looked at California yesterday
50% of the load was solar, it did not differentiate residential/commercial.
60% total renewable
I have to say I was shocked. Lol

Real time:
Demand is low 28 GW
Renewables 30%
But it's early, low sun angle
Forecasted peak 38 GW
You can watch it during the day

Yesterday peak was 45 GW, 60% renewables
Supply

Demand

So it helps, in this case a lot.
Worldwide? >25%
It's working despite the resistance
Iceland is an outlier, it uses a lot of geothermal for heating, not making power.

The share of renewables in the global power mix remained stable between 2020 and 2021, at 28.1%, above 2019 levels (26.3%).


9948A55F-E141-4D6E-9F49-C12D73C21D37.jpeg8AEDCB65-41B1-4A06-A57B-65813C7F31E7.jpeg
 
Home chargers with NEMA 14-50 outlets look to use #8 wire for 40A service. I see Ingenieur has posted gas station hose size 1/0 cable, 400/800V and 200A service, which is basically the entire service in a lot of upgraded home panels, can do overnight, so what does 10 minutes require? Those service stations are literally going to have to have lightning in a bottle to pull off 10 minutes.
I doubt our wire grid is able to deliver 1/10 of the power that sort of charging would require. I'm not saying we can't get there, but the logistics of this massive upgrade are so far beyond what our politicians can deliver it's stupefying. It took them 14 years to plan the I-75 modernization of maybe 25 miles of interstate here in Detroit and an estimated 20 years to complete it; good luck with rebuilding the national power grid in the next 100 years...
That's only part of it.
We are looking at a bigger project then anything else this country, let alone the world, has ever undertaken. Maybe something like the full industry might of the US in ww2? Definitely hugely bigger then Apollo.

As far as your I-75 example, I still think the California high speed rail link is a better comparison. And yes, that's a total disaster.
 
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