dowto1000
Junior Member
I have had a brand-new audio discovery, that has become (a) interesting, (b) frustrating, (c) very disappointing, and (d) very exciting, ( all 4 of these, at ONE time!! ) over the last two days of listening.
I would like to share my listening results and impressions with others, anyone who may be interested in the high end, and obtaining the best possible performance, with tube amps, that we can get.
The bottom line is, I can no longer recommend the TYPE 46 tube as being audio-suitable, to anyone seeking the ultimate truth in audio playback.
I happened to write last week about the ALTEC 604's time alignment, and why the GPA 604 will easily outperform ALL the prior ( vintage ) 604s. Nate, was smart and kind enough to immediately pick up on this, and for everyone's benefit, he cut and pasted 604 driver " depth " diagrams, for all to see, and hopefully .....understand.
As a result Nate's follow-up post, and his comment I read in his post - about differences in distances making a large sonic difference, I THOUGHT about my own 1 1/2 year old VOTT ( A7-800 ) living-room set up. I recalled when I went to the Emilar EH-500 cloned horns, I NEVER ever carefully time aligned the the 802D tweeter driver and tweeter horn, to my 515B woofer driver and bass horn.
I also have had a " feeling", all along, for several months now, that my system balance was wrong and has been incorrect, with the highs overpowering the lows and mids.
OK boys and girls, out came a easy-to-read ruler, and I started systematically listening to distances, from the front edge of the 825 bass enclosure, to the tweeter horn's front flange.
Used my Pioneer Blu Ray player, ( top of the line BDP-09FD ) directly into the mass loaded Type 46 SET amp. Turns out, I was WAY too far forward on the tweeter horn. over an inch !!! No wonder the highs were" forward sounding " to me. They literally were !! I was able to easily select a good compromise distance, to time align the tweeter to the woofer. I was able to resolve / hear the optimal distance, by ear, to 1 millimeter easily.
I was a happy camper, getting the time alignment correct, and hearing my six reference CDs played back for the first time, with better balance. BUT BUT BUT...............
The more I listened, the more MAD I got.
Why, EVERY note I heard, had a fuzziness, a lack of purity to it, every single note, guitar, piano, etc.
I had built this 46 SET amp six months ago for a audio-friend, and was thrilled with how it plays more linearly, powering the speaker, in the middle midrange, than my prior 2016-2017 two Type 45 amps ( with the same circuit ). I sold off every one my ST type 45s.
WHY am I hearing a fuzziness on each note, last two days, its so obvious wrong-sounding to me.???
The answer I figured out yesterday, and it was confirmed today. The Type 46, a directly heated tube, has an extra grid in it, its a four element tube "triode connected ". So, it NEVER can play with the purity I hear of a true triode, such as the JJ 2A3-40 amps, which I just heard at RMAF three weeks ago, for three full days, or, the JJ 2A3-40 dual mono amp, I prototyped in December, 2016, and listened to for three weeks before tearing it down.
WHY am "I" ( and no one else ) so suddenly hearing this "fuzziness", last two days, and getting MAD ??
Two reasons me thinks :
(1) Because I have mass loaded by ear, the Type 46 amp. By placing a brick close to the tube socket of each 12AX7 driver tube, and systematically A-Bing this, I eliminated a physical intermodulation, easily heard on A-Bing, a blurring of the high gain driver stage, as it powered the 46 finals tube. The simple building brick eliminated physical vibrations. Definition became razor - sharp.
Plus,
(2) my DIY amp's driver stage, ( unlike any SET amp I know of - except one) has its B+ fully and heavily shunt regulated, for stability. With ONE single passive part, I draw over TEN times more current through the shunt, than the audio tube uses.
So, my front end has stability of the B+, ( as the driver tube processes the input signal's audio content ) which no other SET amp design ( except one ) , in the history of tube audio to my knowledge, has ever had.
So, boys and girls, I am hearing the fuzziness, and the truth, and I have LEARNED something here. As Mr. Robert Futon used to say to me about using real triodes " there is no substitute for the real thing ".
Historically, Western Electric, ( we all should know ), got kicked out of the movie theatres because of hearing two taps when there was one on the screen. This was for two reasons : Even though the WE 91 amp had a 300B ( true triode ) output stage, the driver was a non triode, a 310 pentode. The second reason was, the WE speakers were not time-aligned, whereas the ALTEC speakers, that replaced the WE speakers, were time-aligned. We can learn from history !!
I learned, by directly experiencing this, last couple of days. There is NOTHING like a direct listening experience, to learn what works and doesn't work !! To heck with theory !!
I would say, 99% of the people running commonly designed middle-fidelity SETs will have a hard, if not impossible time, hearing what I have experienced the last two days. ( Ditto for the shallow but broad suck out I hear on a SE TYPE 45 tube , which HAS triode "purity" to fool you, and a suck out ) .
My Kansas City " firehouse" friend ( with ALTEC A4s, and his dwelling was built 1911, decommissioned in 1933 because door wasn’t tall enough to handle trucks instead of horses.) , heard my system - came over for the first time just yesterday, and he agrees fully with what I am hearing and describing to you all.
Well, live and learn. I am excited to be alive, and be able to report all this to you. Maybe it will be of benefit to ....who knows who, or how many people, in their audio / listening futures.
GOD bless you all.
Dowto1000
I would like to share my listening results and impressions with others, anyone who may be interested in the high end, and obtaining the best possible performance, with tube amps, that we can get.
The bottom line is, I can no longer recommend the TYPE 46 tube as being audio-suitable, to anyone seeking the ultimate truth in audio playback.
I happened to write last week about the ALTEC 604's time alignment, and why the GPA 604 will easily outperform ALL the prior ( vintage ) 604s. Nate, was smart and kind enough to immediately pick up on this, and for everyone's benefit, he cut and pasted 604 driver " depth " diagrams, for all to see, and hopefully .....understand.
As a result Nate's follow-up post, and his comment I read in his post - about differences in distances making a large sonic difference, I THOUGHT about my own 1 1/2 year old VOTT ( A7-800 ) living-room set up. I recalled when I went to the Emilar EH-500 cloned horns, I NEVER ever carefully time aligned the the 802D tweeter driver and tweeter horn, to my 515B woofer driver and bass horn.
I also have had a " feeling", all along, for several months now, that my system balance was wrong and has been incorrect, with the highs overpowering the lows and mids.
OK boys and girls, out came a easy-to-read ruler, and I started systematically listening to distances, from the front edge of the 825 bass enclosure, to the tweeter horn's front flange.
Used my Pioneer Blu Ray player, ( top of the line BDP-09FD ) directly into the mass loaded Type 46 SET amp. Turns out, I was WAY too far forward on the tweeter horn. over an inch !!! No wonder the highs were" forward sounding " to me. They literally were !! I was able to easily select a good compromise distance, to time align the tweeter to the woofer. I was able to resolve / hear the optimal distance, by ear, to 1 millimeter easily.
I was a happy camper, getting the time alignment correct, and hearing my six reference CDs played back for the first time, with better balance. BUT BUT BUT...............
The more I listened, the more MAD I got.
Why, EVERY note I heard, had a fuzziness, a lack of purity to it, every single note, guitar, piano, etc.
I had built this 46 SET amp six months ago for a audio-friend, and was thrilled with how it plays more linearly, powering the speaker, in the middle midrange, than my prior 2016-2017 two Type 45 amps ( with the same circuit ). I sold off every one my ST type 45s.
WHY am I hearing a fuzziness on each note, last two days, its so obvious wrong-sounding to me.???
The answer I figured out yesterday, and it was confirmed today. The Type 46, a directly heated tube, has an extra grid in it, its a four element tube "triode connected ". So, it NEVER can play with the purity I hear of a true triode, such as the JJ 2A3-40 amps, which I just heard at RMAF three weeks ago, for three full days, or, the JJ 2A3-40 dual mono amp, I prototyped in December, 2016, and listened to for three weeks before tearing it down.
WHY am "I" ( and no one else ) so suddenly hearing this "fuzziness", last two days, and getting MAD ??
Two reasons me thinks :
(1) Because I have mass loaded by ear, the Type 46 amp. By placing a brick close to the tube socket of each 12AX7 driver tube, and systematically A-Bing this, I eliminated a physical intermodulation, easily heard on A-Bing, a blurring of the high gain driver stage, as it powered the 46 finals tube. The simple building brick eliminated physical vibrations. Definition became razor - sharp.
Plus,
(2) my DIY amp's driver stage, ( unlike any SET amp I know of - except one) has its B+ fully and heavily shunt regulated, for stability. With ONE single passive part, I draw over TEN times more current through the shunt, than the audio tube uses.
So, my front end has stability of the B+, ( as the driver tube processes the input signal's audio content ) which no other SET amp design ( except one ) , in the history of tube audio to my knowledge, has ever had.
So, boys and girls, I am hearing the fuzziness, and the truth, and I have LEARNED something here. As Mr. Robert Futon used to say to me about using real triodes " there is no substitute for the real thing ".
Historically, Western Electric, ( we all should know ), got kicked out of the movie theatres because of hearing two taps when there was one on the screen. This was for two reasons : Even though the WE 91 amp had a 300B ( true triode ) output stage, the driver was a non triode, a 310 pentode. The second reason was, the WE speakers were not time-aligned, whereas the ALTEC speakers, that replaced the WE speakers, were time-aligned. We can learn from history !!
I learned, by directly experiencing this, last couple of days. There is NOTHING like a direct listening experience, to learn what works and doesn't work !! To heck with theory !!
I would say, 99% of the people running commonly designed middle-fidelity SETs will have a hard, if not impossible time, hearing what I have experienced the last two days. ( Ditto for the shallow but broad suck out I hear on a SE TYPE 45 tube , which HAS triode "purity" to fool you, and a suck out ) .
My Kansas City " firehouse" friend ( with ALTEC A4s, and his dwelling was built 1911, decommissioned in 1933 because door wasn’t tall enough to handle trucks instead of horses.) , heard my system - came over for the first time just yesterday, and he agrees fully with what I am hearing and describing to you all.
Well, live and learn. I am excited to be alive, and be able to report all this to you. Maybe it will be of benefit to ....who knows who, or how many people, in their audio / listening futures.
GOD bless you all.
Dowto1000
Last edited:
