NativeDSD & Audirvana invite you to discover the album Raizes by Breno Viricimo (True DSD256)

MikeyFresh

Moderator
Staff member
I see they have removed the download speed warning mentioned here, and the temporary suspension mentioned here. Hopefully it's now fully resolved, as my download last weekend literally took hours to complete. I went to bed, but thankfully in the morning it was complete and not aborted.
 

airdronian

Radar Member
My download completed overnight as well. It sounds quite good, IMO. Since it was recorded to DSD256, I felt that was the version to get.

There is a "gotcha" for us Mac owners whose DACs only go up to DSD256 though. Mac uses DoP and the max I can do is DSD128 in this regard. Which still sounds great.

So what about my DSD256 files that I just downloaded ? Trying to playback has Audirvana breaking it down to PCM 352.8 if memory serves. And where Audirvana allows you to upsample PCM files to DSD, it does not allow converting DSD256 to 128.

So we need converter software for this. There's a few out there, and I didn't want to pay to play. So my quick search found the Teac Hi-Res Editor.


Using the "Export" function of the app allows you to convert your files from one DSD flavour to another. Drag n' drop one file at a time it seems, so that's a limitation. This works quite well, and I now have this album in DSD128 which plays nicely. For reference - the whole process is about as much fun as ripping cd's, just without the physical disk swapping. :(

Given the real estate the DSD files take up, it's easy to see the benefits of transcoding on the fly - too bad that wasn't an option.

Thanks to @RoadDawgWest for giving this opportunity it's own thread. Had I purchased the album in DSD256 it would have cost $47.99 CAD, which makes current vinyl releases look good.
 

MikeyFresh

Moderator
Staff member
There is a "gotcha" for us Mac owners whose DACs only go up to DSD256 though. Mac uses DoP and the max I can do is DSD128 in this regard. Which still sounds great.

So what about my DSD256 files that I just downloaded ? Trying to playback has Audirvana breaking it down to PCM 352.8 if memory serves. And where Audirvana allows you to upsample PCM files to DSD, it does not allow converting DSD256 to 128.
This is interesting in that I thought by using Audirvana strictly as a server, and streaming these tracks to a Raspberry Pi running Moode's UPnP Renderer, that the macOS DoP limitation to DSD128 would be circumvented.

Not so on my system, I'm not sure why but it seems that Moode is receiving 24/352.8 PCM, even though I do not have DoP checked off in Moode's settings.

When streamed from a JRiver server running on Raspberry Pi, the same Moode settings yield native DSD at 11.2 MHz (DSD256) as evidenced by the front panel display of a Topping D10.

So it appears the macOS limitation to DoP and DSD128 remains even when streaming as opposed to just local playback.

Now I need to swap DACs to see what happens, as the bedroom system showing 24/352.8 uses the Khadas Tone Board DAC, which has no display of sample rate, where the system downstairs gives the additional indication of exactly what is happening via the Topping D10's LED display of sample rate.
 

airdronian

Radar Member
Do you have a dac that does PCM768 / DSD512 ? I did some skimming and that may allow the overhead to permit DSD256 over DoP.
 
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MikeyFresh

Moderator
Staff member
Do you have a dac that does PCM768 / DSD512 ? I did some skimming and that may allow the overhead to permit DSD256 over DoP.
Evidently only the iFi iDAC2, running the 5.2 Limoncello firmware version. It can do DSD256 over DoP (meets the 768kHz PCM requirement).

I just tried my SIMAUDIO Moon 280D and it did not work, even though it is supposed to be DSD256 capable, however that too might require a settings change on the Sonore microRendu, and/or a DAC firmware update (I've never researched or done one on the 280D).

EDIT: In swapping the Topping D10 into the bedroom system replacing the Khadas Tone Board DAC, then configuring that instance of Moode for DoP, it too is capable of DSD256 using DoP (768kHz PCM frames). So the bargain priced D10 (I paid $69) can do either native DSD256, or via DoP from my JRiver server over UPnP.

Now I'll try again with Audirvana as server, from a MacBook Air, to see if DSD256 over DoP is at all possible on macOS.
 
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MikeyFresh

Moderator
Staff member
Firstly, apologies to the OP for dropping all of this techno jargon in a music thread (I blame @airdronian for getting me started ;)). However maybe it's not so off-topic in the sense that many (most/all?) of us might only have just this one DSD256 album, so the discussion of how to actually play it at DSD256 (or not) is pertinent.

In my above post's edit, I said I was able to play either native DSD256, or DSD256 via DoP using JRiver as server and a Moode-based RPi 4B connected to a Topping D10 DAC. This allows one to check both the Audio Info pane in Moode's browser-based GUI to see what the Renderer software thinks is happening, and compare that to the LED display of the DAC itself (they should agree).

However in switching to Audirvana as server, neither the native nor DoP setting in Moode is played back as anything but 352.8kHz PCM, both Moode and the DAC agree, so Audirvana is transcoding it for some reason:

Audirvana-DSD256.jpeg

In switching to one of my handful of DSD128 albums, everything is normal, no transcoding to PCM, either native DSD128 or DSD128 via DoP are rendered that way by Moode and the D10's LED display agrees:

Audirvana-DSD128.jpeg

The difference is revealed not only by the DAC's display of the actual sample rate being played, but also in the first two lines of Audio Info in Moode, with DSD256 Audirvana is outputting a .wav file of "unknown" encoding, which is then decoded by Moode as PCM @ 32/352.8kHz, Audirvana is sending a PCM file.

With the DSD128 album, no such transcoding is occurring, the source is properly listed as a .dff file, and it is encoded as DSD128, and decoded to DoP 24/352.8kHz, which the DAC then plays as DSD128 (5.6MHz sample rate is displayed).

So either Audirvana itself, or the macOS is forcing DSD256 to be transcoded to PCM on-the-fly. Not only does that not happen with DSD128 on macOS, it doesn't happen at all with the humble Linux-based Raspberry Pi server running JRiver.

I'd be very curious if any member is running their Roon Core server on a macOS based computer, and if so, does the same limitation apply there too, though admittedly, there are lots of moving parts here, as the specific DAC's capability also comes into play. If someone can get a macOS-based Roon Core to output DSD256 with no transcoding, then we'd turn our attention to Audirvana as the culprit, otherwise it's a macOS limitation.
 
@MikeyFresh I run my roon core from a QNAP storage array. I have the IFi Pro iDSD DAC set up for "Native". The following is my signal path information and the iFi DAC shows 11.2 MHz.

Screen Shot 2020-10-25 at 12.19.39 PM.png

I also have the Khadas Tone 1 DAC and ropiee set up for in my office system and the DSD playback set for "Native" and the signal path is the same.

Let me see if I can set up a roon core on my mac and hook up to either of the DACs mentioned above.
 

MikeyFresh

Moderator
Staff member
Let me see if I can set up a roon core on my mac and hook up to either of the DACs mentioned above.
Thanks, yes that would be interesting to see, if you can get setup on the Mac without too much time and trouble. The Khadas DAC won't actually be able to confirm as it lacks a display, however the Pro iDSD will tell you what it is receiving with its front panel display.
 
@MikeyFresh I set up the roon core on a 2015 MacBook pro.
When the iFi Pro iDSD DA is connected to the Mac directly the DSD can no longer be "Native and needs set to DSD over PCM (DoP). The following is the signal path and the DAC shows 11.2 MHz.

Screen Shot 2020-10-25 at 12.58.18 PM.png

Let me know if this helps or if you need me to try something else if I can help verify.
 

MikeyFresh

Moderator
Staff member
@MikeyFresh I set up the roon core on a 2015 MacBook pro.
When the iFi Pro iDSD DA is connected to the Mac directly the DSD can no longer be "Native and needs set to DSD over PCM (DoP). The following is the signal path and the DAC shows 11.2 MHz.

View attachment 28790

Let me know if this helps or if you need me to try something else if I can help verify.

Thanks very much for setting that up, that helps and does point the finger back at Audirvana for transcoding DSD256 to PCM. This Roon setup is not doing that, as your DAC confirms an 11.2MHz sample rate using DoP.

So this appears to be Audirvana's inability to deliver DSD256, at least over UPnP, where Roon over RAAT does not show the same issue. I will connect my MacBook Air directly to the DAC to see if Audirvana will deliver DSD256 with a local USB connection, as maybe this is just a bug in their UPnP implementation only.
 

MikeyFresh

Moderator
Staff member
I just connected the MacBook Air via USB directly to the DAC and Audirvana still transcodes this DSD256 album to 352.8kHz PCM, so it appears not to be anything specific to their UPnP implementation, even a direct local connection fails to deliver DSD256.

I am going to contact the developer to see if this is a bug, or is it just DSD128 is the current limit of Audirvana. Seems odd they would sponsor a DSD256 album download, but make no mention of their software's inability to play it, and I would think if they needed to downsample it for whatever reason it would be downsampled to DSD128 and not transcoded to PCM.
 

airdronian

Radar Member
Speaking from a position of "having seen things on the internet", I think it is DACs that can't manage more than 352.8 khz which is the stumbling block. I think DSD256 to be transported over DoP will require a PCM 705.6 khz

3. Solutions for double rate DSD (128FS) and beyond
Two solutions are possible depending on whether the used PCM transmission scheme is capable of supporting the PCM rate of 352.8kHz or not:

1. The solution described above for 64FS DSD can easily be extended for 128FS by simply
raising the underlying PCM sample rate from 176.4kHz to 352.8kHz. All the marker bytes
and bit ordering remain the same.

This came from: DoP open Standard | DSD-Guide.com which illustrates the DoP open standard which is supported by Audirvana as well as a number of other well known companies.
 

MikeyFresh

Moderator
Staff member
Speaking from a position of "having seen things on the internet", I think it is DACs that can't manage more than 352.8 khz which is the stumbling block. I think DSD256 to be transported over DoP will require a PCM 705.6 khz

3. Solutions for double rate DSD (128FS) and beyond
Two solutions are possible depending on whether the used PCM transmission scheme is capable of supporting the PCM rate of 352.8kHz or not:



This came from: DoP open Standard | DSD-Guide.com which illustrates the DoP open standard which is supported by Audirvana as well as a number of other well known companies.

Yes and I think I see what is actually happening now, whatever USB handshake the D10 is doing with Audirvana indicates the DAC's upper limit for PCM is 384kHz, which as you note is insufficient for the macOS mandated DoP scheme, DSD256 over DoP requires the DAC to support the 705.6kHz sample rate.

Audirvana D10.jpeg

This doesn't happen with a Moode-based Raspberry Pi as the source, because Linux doesn't mandate use of DoP like the macOS does. But two things are still odd...

One is that if I make the change in Moode's settings to force DoP from Renderer to DAC, the file does still play at the DSD256 11.2MHz sample rate. So it would seem this DAC is capable of that 705.6kHz sample rate required for DoP, unless of course Moode just ignores that setting in situations where the DAC will also accept Native DSD256. But I can turn DoP on or off in Moode and it makes no difference, the file is played at the 11.2MHz sample rate of DSD256.

The second odd thing is likely a bug that I will mention to Damien, unlike with JRiver's UPnP or Roon's RAAT, Audirvana's UPnP implementation insists on applying the DoP standard there as well when I don't think it should need to. The music is not being processed by CoreAudio, and as evidenced by JRiver and Roon, that means there is no reason to apply the limitations of DoP, as that's only necessary on the Mac itself. In this case I'm passing off the audio to a Linux device and both Moode and the connected DAC are perfectly capable of native DSD256, so I don't think there is any good reason why on the server side Audirvana should saddle the stream with DoP (nor transcode it to 352.8kHz PCM) when it isn't necessary like it is when playing back on the Mac itself.

More evidence of that comes when launching a JRiver UPnP server on my Mac. If DoP were somehow mandated by macOS even when passing the audio off via UPnP stream to a Linux-based Renderer running Moode, then it would apply evenly to both Audirvana and JRiver. But it doesn't... here is what Moode reports when I stream DSD128 from a Mac-based JRiver UPnP server to it:

JRiver DSD128-Mac.jpeg

No DoP at all, that's native DSD128 from a Mac-based JRiver server, proving DoP is not necessary when streaming over UPnP from a Mac-based server, just as with Roon RAAT on a Mac in @RoadDawgWest 's test.

I do see references to this on the Audirvana forum going back to last March, so it would appear there is forced misapplication of DoP by Audirvana's UPnP server function, and with some DACs, a mystery transcode to PCM for no apparent reason.

The forced misapplication of DoP to the UPnP implementation would definitely seem to be an Audirvana bug. Additionally, the posts about this on the Audirvana forum also seem to indicate that any downsample should remain in the DSD realm to DSD128, and not transcode to 352.8kHz PCM, which is what is actually happening.
 
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