The final (Altec) frontier?

[Salectric]

For many years I used subs with a SS amp to augment the low end of my main speakers driven by tube amps. Crossover in the 60 to 125 range depending on the main speakers. Eventually though I concluded the gain in LF extension and power just wasn’t worth the tradeoff in coherency. Once I became attuned to it, I was always aware of when the sub was operating and it colored the sound of the main speakers.

Different people will reach their own conclusions about this, but for me the conclusion was to live without the sub. Coherency is very important to achieving realistic music reproduction, and subs in my opinion simply get in the way.

However I totally understand the frustration with the 414 low end. That’s what led me to replace it with a Jensen 15” woofer. The Jensen P15LL doesn’t have as much deep bass and overall weight as the 416, but it has a fast, detailed midrange that allows it to shine in a 2-way system and it has more LF weight than the 414.

 

[Audionut]

For many years I used subs with a SS amp to augment the low end of my main speakers driven by tube amps. Crossover in the 60 to 125 range depending on the main speakers. Eventually though I concluded the gain in LF extension and power just wasn’t worth the tradeoff in coherency. Once I became attuned to it, I was always aware of when the sub was operating and it colored the sound of the main speakers.

Different people will reach their own conclusions about this, but for me the conclusion was to live without the sub. Coherency is very important to achieving realistic music reproduction, and subs in my opinion simply get in the way.

However I totally understand the frustration with the 414 low end. That’s what led me to replace it with a Jensen 15” woofer. The Jensen P15LL doesn’t have as much deep bass and overall weight as the 416, but it has a fast, detailed midrange that allows it to shine in a 2-way system and it has more LF weight than the 414.

Having tried a single sub, too much (or to high) bass definitely muddled the midrange, so understand what you mean. I do hope my voyage into modern stereo subs with DSP yields better results than yours or @billfort . If not, my saving grace will be a set of 416Z’s, which Bill mentioned having better success implementing.

 

[Salectric]

Stereo subs certainly have a better chance of success than a single sub. You can hear the change in space and air when switching from a single to a stereo pair, even when there’s no bass to speak of, and that was with an 18db crossover.

 

[IceRover]

I used 604-8Gs in 620 clones for years, using first a slightly morified std crossover, then Markwarths and lastly Werners autoformer ones, which where the best of the lot. Great speakers but drop like a stone under ca 60hz ( still have them). The last several years I use A5 with 1505b horns and its a toss between Autoformer ( Werner again) and Hiraga inspired crossovers. The A5s have good level down to c.a 50hz. But Im now building a couple of reflex cabinets for 18” JBL 2242H woofers, and will see if I can get a reasonable bass augmentation down to ca 30-35hz.

 

[IceRover]

 

[Salectric]

Those A5's are huge!

 

[IceRover]

Yes

 

[emmvette]

@Baaronj, I've been the proud keeper of your 414 / 32 horn modified 9844's for the past few years. Just wanted you to know they are being enjoyed. I've lived with a 604s, Klipschorns, Cornwalls / Cornscalas, and these fit right in. I've run them with a number of different amps; mostly a VAC Sigma 160i, which is a phenomenal tube amp and it pairs well with them.
There are two things I'd like to do and haven't yet:
1. Find a more aesthetically pleasing way to set the horns on top
2. Have someone redo the crossovers so they look more professional.

Nice work!

 

[ChrisAZ]

Find a more aesthetically pleasing way to set the horns on top

What about building a low profile horn cabinet that sets on top of your current cabinet? Kinda like a Klipscorn or Altec models 19,14. You could try to match the finish or paint it for a two tone look. I’ve actually been considering a something like this myself for several projects I have parts for.

Or if you were starting from scratch you could probably fit that horn inside the main cabinet if it were an inch or two taller. You’d need to move the rectangular port to the bottom (Shindo style) or calculate two ports that could be located on either side of the 414’s on the baffle.

 

[IceRover]

Seeing my pictures above made me remember this thread, so a short progress rep.
I have been using one sub for awhile (jbl 2242h 18in). Mono up to from 80-100hz 48db crossovers. And was quit impressed by the bass and low level dynamics. Now I run the Votts without crossover to sub and am trying to blend in the sub from 40-60hz with 6 and 12 db crossover. 40hz high pass ( edit: it is actually low pass ) and 12db/oct. on the sub seem to work ok, need time to evaluate. Freeing the Votts and not cutting them off gives a lot better bass (515 are a lot lighter on their feet than the jbl 18s) and feeling of space for live venues, probably augmented by the not so stiff 828 cabs . I have also put in som paper diafragms into my Altec 299-8As, bought from a Russian guy some tima ago, but not tested until now. Are smoother and clearer than the old 288 alu. ones. I have different valve monoblocks to play with as well as different DIY first watt class A and class D for the sub.

 

[MrEd]

Seeing my pictures above made me remember this thread, so a short progress rep.
I have been using one sub for awhile (jbl 2242h 18in). Mono up to from 80-100hz 48db crossovers. And was quit impressed by the bass and low level dynamics. Now I run the Votts without crossover to sub and am trying to blend in the sub from 40-60hz with 6 and 12 db crossover. 40hz high pass ( edit: it is actually low pass ) and 12db/oct. on the sub seem to work ok, need time to evaluate. Freeing the Votts and not cutting them off gives a lot better bass (515 are a lot lighter on their feet than the jbl 18s) and feeling of space for live venues, probably augmented by the not so stiff 828 cabs . I have also put in som paper diafragms into my Altec 299-8As, bought from a Russian guy some tima ago, but not tested until now. Are smoother and clearer than the old 288 alu. ones. I have different valve monoblocks to play with as well as different DIY first watt class A and class D for the sub.
View attachment 56311

You are very much on the same track I did with my Vott set up.
Letting the 828 roll off naturally and fill out the bottom. I liked it a lot and one sub playing that low was all that was needed. It seemed to bring more size to sound stage.

If you care to expand on your impressions of the paper diaphragms please do.
I have been considering buying a pair.

 

[IceRover]

@MrEd, Im happy with the paper diaphragms so far. They are more smooth sounding, and a touch more dynamic ( lighter than the alu. ). I noticed a sligth sybliance on one song (I dont rember this from before, but that could be the recording). I need to give them some time to break in ( it will not be a chore to do that as they sound that good from new). But all in all quite promising. I bougth the version with copper coils. I have som old JBL 075 supporting the top, I might remove them and run without tweeters for some time.

 

[MrEd]

@MrEd, Im happy with the paper diaphragms so far. They are more smooth sounding, and a touch more dynamic ( lighter than the alu. ). I noticed a sligth sybliance on one song (I dont rember this from before, but that could be the recording). I need to give them some time to break in ( it will not be a chore to do that as they sound that good from new). But all in all quite promising. I bougt the version with copper coils. I have som old JBL 075 supporting the top, I might remove them and run without tweeters for some time.

That's encouraging.
I m thinking I will buy a pair after getting past January bills and property taxes...😔

 

[IceRover]

Less and less Altec regrettably (still have the multicells, havent sold them yet.). Celestion axi2050 in Seos 30 horns on top of my Altec 828 cabs.

 

[RonSSNova]

The 1505’s had a lot more “cool” factor. But will fetch a pretty penny when you sell them.