The sound of the table

jblnut

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I have an question I'd like to pose to our esteemed members in the hopes of getting some more insight into a phenomenon I've noticed over the years. Ready?

So, when a record is playing, if you turn down/off your amp and get close to your record player of choice, you can usually hear the music playing. This would be because the cartridge body, headshell and arm are actually resonating as the music plays much like a guitar body.

My question is simply this - is there a correlation between the volume of the sound being produced and the overall quality of the turntable system ? In my own experience it seems there is. My older players (like a cheap Panasonic table with ceramic cartridge or my Duals) produced a very audible sound you could hear across the room. Even later tables like a Technics SL-B205 still managed to sing a mean tune on their own. But when I finally put some really nice tables in my system, I found that the sound of the table was virtually NIL.

It would seem that you don't want the cart/arm resonating enough to be audible as that would certainly color the sound, right ?

I'm happy to be totally wrong here...just curious to get other members take on this phenomenon.
 
My opinion and only that -

It's called "needle talk" and is normal. I believe that the higher the cartridge output the louder it will be. As a general rule, the cheaper the 'table combo (cheap HO cartridge) the louder the needle talk.
 
You and I talked briefly on the phone Sunday about the Denon 103 and how folk improve it by such things as denuding it, or potting it, or replacing the body entirely with something more substantial like the aluminum bodies or wood bodies- all tricks to reduce vibration and improve sound. And some of the dampening methods myself and Kevin at KAB employed on the Technics arms improved performance- by dampening areas that may (or do) present a problem. I had read a test out of England identifying resonance in the end stub of the Technics SL1700MKII, which other than a small difference in the base is a 1200 arm. That led me to install foam plugs in the arm, and Kevin used a screw in plastic thumbscrew with rubber washer. The ToneArm tubes either a cotton plug or a foam insert or a section of rubber tube or a short length of shrink tube had a positive aural effect- although I admit anecdotal as no resonance tests were performed. But audibly it was convincing.

I wonder if anyone has done tests on the Denon body swaps? Nice little cottage industry there.

So I’m fully convinced you are on to something. Resonance, as in resonating parts, produce noise. Various methods to isolate or control or counteract and defeat resonance in the arm and cartridge body (as well as the turntable body) is going to reduce unwanted vibration and energy that otherwise would fight the signal.

This makes sense, much like a luthier constructs an acoustic guitar to properly resonate, a drummer adjusts or pads down a drum head for effect, or a bit further off a tangent, an engineer removes vibration from a motorcycle to reduce rider fatigue and minimize loss of energy transfer to the drive wheel.

For the record (!!!), I’ve been flattening my warped records then putting them on my turntable, lowering the arm, an spinning the platter to see how the warp has flattened. I’m hearing no sound from the EPA 250 arm and the shibata stylus and cart.

A big contrast to the time as a youth I discovered putting the needle down on a leather bound, zip open record player with a big hollow cupped plastic headshell would clearly let me hear John Lennon, Gene Simmons and Joey Ramone’s voice, higher pitched and tinny, but clear and audible.

Two drastically different quality tables.
 
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I had a Zyx cart that had a problem. Something internal that caused an audible peak in response and it would never track for anything- maybe a suspension issue. Some sort of damage or manufacturing issue (I bought the cart used). And it was made of this cheap-feeling plastic/acrylic, too which didn't help the resonance. When I would run it on my VPI it would sing so loud I could hear it across the room. It was less like needletalk and more like needle yell. I always felt that the unipivot on the VPI would trap resonance in the arm and bounce it back and forth from the stylus tip to the pivot tip and back... very few things tracked well on it. The zyx was a medium output LOMC, and I haven't had the experience that the output of the cart had anything to do with needle talk. But whenever I have heard a lot of it, it was never a great thing for the sound. As in I never had both needle-talk and great sound together. But that could have just been coincidence, and not correlated.
 
There's a product from Funk Firm I'm curious about though its super expensive for what it is. A little shim that goes between the cart and headshell that's supposed to help isolate the cart from resonance and channel it away from the arm/cart connection. Does it work? I have no idea but it gets a lot of rave reviews. Unlike a lot of tweaks this one seems to make sense to me as to what its trying to do, and I've liked what I've heard from Funk Firm in the past. Their mats, tables, arms, etc. The product is called the Houdini. I'm tempted to buy one from Music Direct down the road and listen to what happens...easy enough to return it directly to them if it's nothing. But it's $400! for what looks like a molded slice of closed cell foam. So....no.
 
Re: the famous VPI Unipivot arm - John did you ever try filling the pivot cup with the viscous silicone damping fluid they give you ? I am finally trying that out now (don't ask me what took so long) and I am finding that it is the "cure" for what you are describing. Wish I had tried it long ago...
 
Re: the famous VPI Unipivot arm - John did you ever try filling the pivot cup with the viscous silicone damping fluid they give you ? I am finally trying that out now (don't ask me what took so long) and I am finding that it is the "cure" for what you are describing. Wish I had tried it long ago...
Yes I did, towards the end of my ownership of it, and it did help. It seemed to really want a specific compliance of cart and the only two I ever found that met it was a Dynavector 10x5 and this old Azden LOMC with a fine but fairly stiff cantilever. It could also be that the problematic Zyx just soured me on it in such a way that I started to assume any issue was due to the arm.
 
There's a product from Funk Firm I'm curious about though its super expensive for what it is. A little shim that goes between the cart and headshell that's supposed to help isolate the cart from resonance and channel it away from the arm/cart connection. Does it work? I have no idea but it gets a lot of rave reviews. Unlike a lot of tweaks this one seems to make sense to me as to what its trying to do, and I've liked what I've heard from Funk Firm in the past. Their mats, tables, arms, etc. The product is called the Houdini. I'm tempted to buy one from Music Direct down the road and listen to what happens...easy enough to return it directly to them if it's nothing. But it's $400! for what looks like a molded slice of closed cell foam. So....no.
I’d love to know what it’s made of.

I have heard of various shims that are used for resonance control. One could probably experiment themselves making their own with different materials (dynamat, a mixture of bentonite and epoxy, various woods, etc) but I imagine Funk Firm has a proprietary material and also owns or has access to testing equipment.

But as to it working- well, that’s reflected as well in the re-body of carts like the Denon DL-103 with various materials such as wood or aluminum alloy. So it’s likely effective at some degree.
 
…. I always felt that the unipivot on the VPI would trap resonance in the arm and bounce it back and forth from the stylus tip to the pivot tip and back... very few things tracked well on it...
My experience is it was very selective on which carts worked properly on it- and it was a narrow window.

As noted above though- dampening the arm in a silicone bath seems to open the compatibility window- I’m not surprised, as there are numerous arms from Jelco that employed that, including an Audioquest I kind of wish I kept, and add-on troughs for Technics and I believe for SME, and other arms. It makes sense- I mean, the dampening and control of the well tempered arm is in part the silicone cup.
 
My experience is it was very selective on which carts worked properly on it- and it was a narrow window.

As noted above though- dampening the arm in a silicone bath seems to open the compatibility window- I’m not surprised, as there are numerous arms from Jelco that employed that, including an Audioquest I kind of wish I kept, and add-on troughs for Technics and I believe for SME, and other arms. It makes sense- I mean, the dampening and control of the well tempered arm is in part the silicone cup.
The SME-V has a silcone trough that you can dip a paddle into, to varying depth. It does help a bit, though the arm without the dampening is pretty forgiving, too.

When I've heard needle-talk it seemed more common with lower compliance carts. I don't remember my V-15vmr or Stanton 881s or the like every chattering.
 
The SME-V has a silcone trough that you can dip a paddle into, to varying depth. It does help a bit, though the arm without the dampening is pretty forgiving, too.

When I've heard needle-talk it seemed more common with lower compliance carts. I don't remember my V-15vmr or Stanton 881s or the like every chattering.
It is better in my opinion when the silicone bath is a performance additive and an enhancement vs a requirement but you know what they say about opinions…

I do see why the inherent and various design elements of a unipivot would benefit more though, so maybe I have to rethink my stance a bit.
 
It is better in my opinion when the silicone bath is a performance additive and an enhancement vs a requirement but you know what they say about opinions…

I do see why the inherent and various design elements of a unipivot would benefit more though, so maybe I have to rethink my stance a bit.
My Audiocraft AC-400C is a damped unipivot and it absolutely must be damped or it sounds like crap. Not only that but it has to be damped exactly to the correct degree. Set-up on that arm was an "adventure". First came all of the usual alignment and then there was not only getting the damping just right, but waiting for it to settle from each change. It took me a full week to get things dialed in, though probably someone who actually knew what they were doing might have accomplished it quickly. Who knows? The adjustments in the damping were like focusing a manual lens on a SLR camera.

I was messing with mats on the DP-80 last night. When I dropped off the iPhon3 to get repaired (or whatever they decide to do with it) and picked up the Heed my dealer sent home (completely unsolicited, though that same day JohnVF and I had been talking about them - I don't even have Alexa...) a 3mm FunkFirm Acromat to play with. Late last night I finally got the set-up on the TK-950L dialed in to the point where it was worth trying out the mat. Simply replacing the very thick and heavy 5mm rubber Denon mat with the Acromat was a clear fail, probably because the damped double platter was engineered to have that weight on it. It just sounded thin and a bit unfocused. I then tried stacking the Acromat on top of the Heavy rubber one. Bingo! Cleaned up and tightened both the upper bass and the middle-mids and added to the general acuity and resolution. It was the least subtle change I've experienced with a mat and I've tried a few. It was also interesting that while with the rubber mat there was a range of VTA settings that worked - but sounded subtly different - with the Acromat there was one and only one height that worked with anything either side sounding a bit "off". Through all of the above playing about I was constantly thanking my lucky stars for having decided to buy the smooth-as-silk VTA-on-the-fly collar. How did I ever manage without such a necessity...
 
My Audiocraft AC-400C is a damped unipivot and it absolutely must be damped or it sounds like crap. Not only that but it has to be damped exactly to the correct degree. Set-up on that arm was an "adventure". First came all of the usual alignment and then there was not only getting the damping just right, but waiting for it to settle from each change. It took me a full week to get things dialed in, though probably someone who actually knew what they were doing might have accomplished it quickly. Who knows? The adjustments in the damping were like focusing a manual lens on a SLR camera.

I was messing with mats on the DP-80 last night. When I dropped off the iPhon3 to get repaired (or whatever they decide to do with it) and picked up the Heed my dealer sent home (completely unsolicited, though that same day JohnVF and I had been talking about them - I don't even have Alexa...) a 3mm FunkFirm Acromat to play with. Late last night I finally got the set-up on the TK-950L dialed in to the point where it was worth trying out the mat. Simply replacing the very thick and heavy 5mm rubber Denon mat with the Acromat was a clear fail, probably because the damped double platter was engineered to have that weight on it. It just sounded thin and a bit unfocused. I then tried stacking the Acromat on top of the Heavy rubber one. Bingo! Cleaned up and tightened both the upper bass and the middle-mids and added to the general acuity and resolution. It was the least subtle change I've experienced with a mat and I've tried a few. It was also interesting that while with the rubber mat there was a range of VTA settings that worked - but sounded subtly different - with the Acromat there was one and only one height that worked with anything either side sounding a bit "off". Through all of the above playing about I was constantly thanking my lucky stars for having decided to buy the smooth-as-silk VTA-on-the-fly collar. How did I ever manage without such a necessity...
I'm glad you got to try out an Achromat. I had bought one to use on my VPI and while the VPI is gone that Achromat stayed and is really useful. It just takes (to steal from the title of the thread) the sound of the table out a bit. Though that depends some on what the sound of the table is, and if its at all holding things up. I use mine on my Mitsubishi LT-30, a bit direct drive linear tracker. With the Achromat, the table loses just a slight bit of hardness in its presentation. And like you I have used it on top of existing (or other) mats. The VPI didn't have a mat, just a huge thick metal platter. With the Achromat a bit more bloom and air came into the sound.
 
I'm glad you got to try out an Achromat. I had bought one to use on my VPI and while the VPI is gone that Achromat stayed and is really useful. It just takes (to steal from the title of the thread) the sound of the table out a bit. Though that depends some on what the sound of the table is, and if its at all holding things up. I use mine on my Mitsubishi LT-30, a bit direct drive linear tracker. With the Achromat, the table loses just a slight bit of hardness in its presentation. And like you I have used it on top of existing (or other) mats. The VPI didn't have a mat, just a huge thick metal platter. With the Achromat a bit more bloom and air came into the sound.
I thought it was amusing that after you and I talking about the Acromat one should be offered to try virtually instantly. From what I've heard it seems to be doing is focusing on a couple of typically problematic frequency ranges. I have not idea if that is actually true, but it is what I'm hearing.
 
I thought it was amusing that after you and I talking about the Acromat one should be offered to try virtually instantly. From what I've heard it seems to be doing is focusing on a couple of typically problematic frequency ranges. I have not idea if that is actually true, but it is what I'm hearing.
In my use of it, it's been most noticeable on direct drives. It helped the VPI out a bit but my Sony TTS-8000, Sony 2251, Yamaha YP-D8 and Mitsubishi (especially) benefitted the most. I have no idea what its filtering out or forming a barrier between but its a nice and not too expensive upgrade. The Mitsubishi especially benefitted. It's the only Quartz locked table of that bunch...not sure if that's playing into it? All conjecture but I've found it to be useful. It didn't do much of anything on my Strathclyde belt drive.. a thin acrylic mat with a felt mat on top of it was the best combo there.
 
r.e. the Achromat, do you guys suppose it not only prevents "back feed" record resonances (as claimed by the manufacturer), but also prevents any resonance of the platter filtering up through the record groove?

I'm curious if it reduces or eliminates platter rumble, as opposed to it being used for cartridge/tonearm improvement.

If you catch my drift.
 
In my use of it, it's been most noticeable on direct drives. It helped the VPI out a bit but my Sony TTS-8000, Sony 2251, Yamaha YP-D8 and Mitsubishi (especially) benefitted the most. I have no idea what its filtering out or forming a barrier between but its a nice and not too expensive upgrade. The Mitsubishi especially benefitted. It's the only Quartz locked table of that bunch...not sure if that's playing into it? All conjecture but I've found it to be useful. It didn't do much of anything on my Strathclyde belt drive.. a thin acrylic mat with a felt mat on top of it was the best combo there.
It hasn't taken me very long to decide the Acromat is staying put. It also has the decency to exactly the same diameter as the stock rubber mat. Stacked they look almost seamless.

One thing to ponder into this is that the DD decks tend to have considerably lighter platters as they don't need (or want) a whole lot of flywheel effect for speed consistency. I'd reckon that might play into things perhaps?
 
r.e. the Achromat, do you guys suppose it not only prevents "back feed" record resonances (as claimed by the manufacturer), but also prevents any resonance of the platter filtering up through the record groove?

I'm curious if it reduces or eliminates platter rumble, as opposed to it being used for cartridge/tonearm improvement.

If you catch my drift.
It's supposed to prevent what you say. The resonances, etc, from the stylus bouncing back from the record and then back into the stylus. In my use of it, it also seems to act as a barrier between what's going on in the table/motor/platter and the stylus, but I don't have anything to support that except saying it's what my ears suggested. It's not a miracle device, and again, it was apparent in some tables and on others, like my Strathclyde, I didn't hear much of any difference between it and some other mats.
 
r.e. the Achromat, do you guys suppose it not only prevents "back feed" record resonances (as claimed by the manufacturer), but also prevents any resonance of the platter filtering up through the record groove?

I'm curious if it reduces or eliminates platter rumble, as opposed to it being used for cartridge/tonearm improvement.

If you catch my drift.
My feeling from what I was hearing in experimenting last night is that it mostly does what the manufacturer claims. It seems to filter or focus resonances in troublesome frequency ranges. I've no way of knowing beyond guessing according to what I heard.
 
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