Vintage gear with great on-board phono stages.

[fiddlefye]

Both the Yamaha C4 and the Apt Holman have multiple remarkably good phono stages (MM only for the APT).

The phono stage in my Yamaha C-4 is really very good, especially after it got the resto-mod treatment (first I had done, actually). It has considerable flexibility for a stage of that era as well.

The stage in the Accuphase E-202 is really superb, but then it was also fully rebuilt when the rest of the amp was done a few years ago. Background noise is absolutely inaudible and it has a beautiful vibrancy and joie-de-vivre happening.

The stages in the Yamaha CA-1010 and CA-1000 are both very nice as well, both having been rebuilt.

One fine day I'll try the Luxman 5L-15 I got from John a few years ago in a main system and use the phono stage. It is so settled into my desktop set-up it will take some doing to pry it loose, though.

As to Marantz receivers - I have a fondness for the 4300 quad I have, but the phono stage has never been anything thrilling, just "adequate".

 

[Thermionics]

The phono stage in my Yamaha C-4 is really very good, especially after it got the resto-mod treatment (first I had done, actually). It has considerable flexibility for a stage of that era as well.

I bought my C-4 already restored by Avionic, so I've only known it in its giant-slayer guise.

 

[fiddlefye]

I bought my C-4 already restored by Avionic, so I've only known it in its giant-slayer guise.

It isn't just the ageing aspect of some "vintage" gear that can hold it back, but also (IMHO) the point where the accountants and production engineers take over from those responsible for the original design work. The C-4 was one of the more extreme examples of the improvements that can be had.

 

[JohnVF]

The phono stage in my Yamaha C-4 is really very good, especially after it got the resto-mod treatment (first I had done, actually). It has considerable flexibility for a stage of that era as well.

The stage in the Accuphase E-202 is really superb, but then it was also fully rebuilt when the rest of the amp was done a few years ago. Background noise is absolutely inaudible and it has a beautiful vibrancy and joie-de-vivre happening.

The stages in the Yamaha CA-1010 and CA-1000 are both very nice as well, both having been rebuilt.

One fine day I'll try the Luxman 5L-15 I got from John a few years ago in a main system and use the phono stage. It is so settled into my desktop set-up it will take some doing to pry it loose, though.

As to Marantz receivers - I have a fondness for the 4300 quad I have, but the phono stage has never been anything thrilling, just "adequate".

The 5L-15 had a good phono stage, if my memory from about 15 years ago is correct. Certainly my context wasn't as complete as now but I recall it being pretty decent.

My Accuphase E-303x had a very grainy sounding phono stage. The previous owner had recapped the whole unit except for the phono stage (rather arbitrarily with the fanciest caps 'ruining its sound' according to another tech who looked at it, after it triggered a rant about willy-nilly recapping without regard to the choices originally made by Accuphase engineers for voicing...anybody who has dealt with Stereo Rehab in Chicago will know what I'm talking about ). The line stage inputs sounded ok (not great) and the phono stage just kind of sucked in comparison. Without having heard one that was either stock or my thoughtfully refurbished its hard to say what it was supposed to sound like.

Hopefully it's living its best life with whoever bought it.

 

[fiddlefye]

The 5L-15 had a good phono stage, if my memory from about 15 years ago is correct. Certainly my context wasn't as complete as now but I recall it being pretty decent.

My Accuphase E-303x had a very grainy sounding phono stage. The previous owner had recapped the whole unit except for the phono stage (rather arbitrarily with the fanciest caps 'ruining its sound' according to another tech who looked at it, after it triggered a rant about willy-nilly recapping without regard to the choices originally made by Accuphase engineers for voicing...anybody who has dealt with Stereo Rehab in Chicago will know what I'm talking about ). The line stage inputs sounded ok (not great) and the phono stage just kind of sucked in comparison. Without having heard one that was either stock or my thoughtfully refurbished its hard to say what it was supposed to sound like.

Hopefully it's living its best life with whoever bought it.

Willy-nilly is never a good thing and one certainly has to know not only the characteristics of the unit in question, but also the products being used - why techs go crazy when caps etc. they've come to understand disappear off the market!

I had no great anticipation regarding the stage in the E-202, only the hope that it would be at least adequate for casual bedroom listening. I was pleasantly shocked by the results as it is not only a nicely balanced stage, but really detailed and vibrantly exciting where called for.

 

[Muddskipper]

I had a HK 670 receiver I bought new as a Jr. In HS in 79 as a demo model from Speakerlab in Seattle. I have such fond memories of that piece, it just sounded great to me for 10+ yrs until I got sucked into a home theater system that sucked the life out of the music.

I had a cheapish TT, but my juvenile ears loved the way the records sounded.

EDIT: corrected the model number

I have no idea what you guys are talking about but I loved the deeply satisfying green glow on black of my 1970 (I think) Harmon Kardon ( we didn't call them HK in those days) Nocturne 330A receiver. Nocturne was the perfect description for that relaxing 💚 lighting up the front room of my 8' x 48' trailer along about midnight. Sounded awesome to me when I added my JBL-100s a couple or three years later.

 

[JohnVF]

Willy-nilly is never a good thing and one certainly has to know not only the characteristics of the unit in question, but also the products being used - why techs go crazy when caps etc. they've come to understand disappear off the market!

I had no great anticipation regarding the stage in the E-202, only the hope that it would be at least adequate for casual bedroom listening. I was pleasantly shocked by the results as it is not only a nicely balanced stage, but really detailed and vibrantly exciting where called for.

That bums me out a bit, not for you but for me, as I always felt my E303x should have sounded better than it did, but it had such an arbitrary makeover that I feel it just got tipped over into the stridency it had a tendency for. I should know that when somebody goes to lengths to rebuild something ....then sells it.... and they're not a flipper that maybe the thing just doesn't sound great.

 

[fiddlefye]

That bums me out a bit, not for you but for me, as I always felt my E303x should have sounded better than it did, but it had such an arbitrary makeover that I feel it just got tipped over into the stridency it had a tendency for. I should know that when somebody goes to lengths to rebuild something ....then sells it.... and they're not a flipper that maybe the thing just doesn't sound great.

It has been years since I heard an E303, but the character (such as I remember it) was very different from the E202. I suspect that the designers were off on a different path by then.

 

[eargiant]

Sansui AU-X1

The image below shows the amount of real estate devoted to phono reproduction. The highlighted section on the bottom (front of amp) has 4 separate power supplies, one for each MM/MC L&R channel. The highlighted section on the right has a horizontal motherboard with relays for circuit isolation and 4 separate vertical phono boards, one for each MM/MC L&R channel. The MC boards have 24 paralleled FETs for noise reduction. The highlighted transformer and filter caps on the upper left serve the phono and pre (that can switched to passive mode). It's my understanding that the phono section runs in Class A. Sansui put a lot of effort into the phono capabilities of this unit. They were not messing around.

 

[JohnVF]

Sansui AU-X1

The image below shows the amount of real estate devoted to phono reproduction. The highlighted section on the bottom (front of amp) has 4 separate power supplies, one for each MM & MC L & R channel. The highlighted section on the right has a motherboard with relays for circuit isolation and 4 separate phono boards, one for each MM/MC L&R channel. The MC boards have 24 paralleled FETs for noise reduction. Sansui put a lot of effort into the phono capabilities of this unit. They were not messing around.

That looks amazing all around.

 

[SPL db]

Also the NAD 3020 used to get a lot of kudos for it's great MM/MC phono stage and I know some folks here must have had/heard one

I was going to mention the NAD 3120 (3020 sans tone controls). I'll also piggyback on the fore mentioned Kenwood Model 700C preamp and throw in the Kenny Model 500/600 integrateds.

 

[HiFiGuy321]

By all means, an Apt Holman preamp. Tom Holman wrote a thesis on the interaction between cartridges and phono stages when he was at University of Illinois; it was published in the AES Journal. He then, according to legend, set out to create the very best preamp phono stage ever. If you're familiar with the Apt Holman, you know it has a unique mode control that with the knob all the way counter-clockwise, the preamp is in L+R mono; in the center, stereo and totally clockwise, L-R mono. Take a mono records, turn the control all the way to the right and adjust the pots on the left side of the preamp for minimum sound. That means the cartridge's output for both channels is balanced. I've had several fairly expensive outboard stages and none has quite equaled what I get from my Apt Holman. The overall performance of the preamp is stellar.

 

[Tables_and_Tubes]

By all means, an Apt Holman preamp. Tom Holman wrote a thesis on the interaction between cartridges and phono stages when he was at University of Illinois; it was published in the AES Journal. He then, according to legend, set out to create the very best preamp phono stage ever. If you're familiar with the Apt Holman, you know it has a unique mode control that with the knob all the way counter-clockwise, the preamp is in L+R mono; in the center, stereo and totally clockwise, L-R mono. Take a mono records, turn the control all the way to the right and adjust the pots on the left side of the preamp for minimum sound. That means the cartridge's output for both channels is balanced. I've had several fairly expensive outboard stages and none has quite equaled what I get from my Apt Holman. The overall performance of the preamp is stellar.

I would love to read that paper! Will have to search the AES website and see if it is available.

Dan

 

[mhardy6647]

I would love to read that paper! Will have to search the AES website and see if it is available.

Dan

or... google...
I mean... this appears to be it.

https://hifisonix.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Tomlinson-Holman-phono-pre-research.pdf

 

[Tables_and_Tubes]

or... google...
I mean... this appears to be it.

https://hifisonix.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Tomlinson-Holman-phono-pre-research.pdf

Thank you!

Dan