Why Do My LP’s and CD’s and Streams Sound The Way They Do?

First, a little bit about Dave McNair: Dave has written about the various parts of record production in great detail throughout his column, The Ivory Tower, published in Part Time Audiophile. He is qualified to do so because he makes fantastic sounding records for a living, and has been doing so for over forty years. From recording, to mixing, to mastering, to winning thirteen Grammys along the way—Dave’s done it all.

This is a fascinating and extremely insightful read into recorded sound from Mastering Engineer Dave McNair.

I recommend setting some time aside to click on the links for an engrossing appreciation of how the recordings we listen to are made and produced. It’s not as cut-and-dry and much more complicated than most can imagine.

IMHO I think it’s worth the reading time investment if you want to obtain a much better understanding of how recordings we like come about.

As always, YMMV. The following snippets are from Dave McNair and all of this was published in Part Time Audiophile in 2020.

Please enjoy :smoke
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Now for some gems from Dave.

A better sounding system really enables me to get into the music more,” or some minor variation of the phrase. That, my friends, is some weak bullshit. Okay, before y’all get your knickers in a twist, hear me out

Reality Is Overrated When It Comes to Recordings

Creating a recording is all about stirring emotions in the listener. Not all artists think about this when they write and record stuff, but that’s what it comes down to.

When a group of young lads from Liverpool got the chance to record their tunes, the LAST thing they wanted was for the white lab coat-wearing engineers at Abbey Road to impose management-mandated “best practices” for their recordings. Those practices were arrived at from primarily recording classical music and musicals–distant microphone placement, minimal or no eq (equalization) and dynamics processing.

The earliest Beatles records actually WERE them playing live with no additional overdubs. I’ll grant you there is a certain charm and excitement to those records, but I’d much rather hear the studio trickery of say, Revolver.

The Beatles were huge fans of Tamla/Motown records (among other American chart-toppers). Those records sounded amazing on a table radio, in the car, jukebox, console hi-fi, etc. Okay, a lot of that amazingness was due to the talent of the performers, producers, writers, etc. but a big part of what makes old Motown records compelling is the sonic vibe, meaning their particular style of hyped sonics. Well, maybe not so sonically compelling on your pair of Wilson Audio Chronosonic XVXs, and therein lies the rub.

One thing I have noticed is that older ’60s or ’70s era pop recordings done entirely on tape and analog consoles can still be listenable on hi-rez systems even though there is that extreme type of processing that was designed to make the song jump out of the factory audio system in a ‘67 Chevy Malibu. Magnetic tape, vacuum tube or discrete op amp-based solid state eqs and compressors can be mighty forgiving even when used to an extreme.

So why don’t more modern recordings have the sonics designed to create the illusion of performance in your living room? There is a pesky little thing that almost always precludes a bonafide, audiophile-approved recording. It’s known as—the artist.

There’s another subtle aspect to purist-style recordings. Unless the artist or entire musical ensemble is very comfortable with performing AND playing as mistake-free as possible, an “audiophile” recording can feel pretty bland. Nobody wants to risk blowing the take so they play it safe. That results in a very different feel than when a singer or instrumentalist totally goes for it, knowing they have a wide safety net.

Digital got a bad reputation among audiophiles from the beginning, and rightly so—yet this was not the experience of most music fans in those early days. My first generation Sony CD player in many ways sounded better than the budget turntable setup I was using at the time.

So it should turn out to be no surprise that for a digital master mix, one more layer of analog colorations from a cutting system can be just what the doctor ordered.

Yes, poor digital can suck the life out of a signal. And poor analog, especially tape, can rob the signal of a lot of great things as well. Can the marriage of well done current digital music production when transferred to a record sound great? You betcha!

During an active listening session:
  • Are you listening primarily to the music?
  • Are you listening to your system (or a particular component)?
  • Are you listening to some mix of both?
  • If you move between states, what triggers this?
  • How does the joy of gear listening compare to the joy of music listening?
  • Is one way more tangible or meaningful than the other?
  • Does the sound of the gear itself influence the pure music listening experience?
  • What are our individual listening biases and how much does our bias inform these questions?
2K-3.5K is nearing the end of the midrange and creeping up on treble. Hi-fi gear that emphasizes or de-emphasizes this area will impart either a forwardness that may become aggressive or conversely have a very relaxed sounding nature. 3K is usually considered the center of where our ears measure as the most sensitive. Screaming infants and screechy car brakes OWN 3K.

Liquid means a subtle sense of the sound being seamless or effortless but not in a dynamic sense. Things just flow. I think it’s harder for a hi-fi system with great dynamic contrast virtues to sound liquid, but I have heard some. And those systems usually cost a small fortune.

One person’s ‘transparent’ is another person’s ‘sterile’, but if we all heard things the same and liked the same things, that wouldn’t be any fun – now would it? What IS fun is articulating our individual perceptions and preferences by using terms that have a more or less shared meaning when talking or writing about what we love (or hate) about the sound.

Do some artists go too far in their quest for volume domination?

So if most streaming services use ‘volume normalization’ to make everything sound roughly the same volume level, why does the content creator want their shit so loud?

How Recordings Are Produced, and What It Means to Your Hi-Fi | The Ivory Tower

Why Do Records Sound Better? | The Ivory Tower

Hi-Fi: How Do We Listen? | The Ivory Tower

Hi-Fi: What Does It Sound Like? | The Ivory Tower

The Loudness Wars | The Ivory Tower
 

Olson_jr

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I like puppies and most dogs. But my wife does not like most big dogs. And yet they love her, crazy!
 
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a pregnant topic for sure.. of all the decades and having gone from analog to digital and back. the most interesting Fact imo is how a vinyl rip to WAV/flac sounds 95% the same. and the CD of that same album usually (not always) is %60 . So much so that vinyl collection is collecting dust and all the albums WAV's are what is pumped through my system. Once in a while will spin it directly off the table and then go back to WAV as normal and am just as content. Cannot say that about going from a CD listen, to vinyl and back.

So the obvious question comes...why is the 'digital' rip so satisfying and a near exact listen as the pure vinyl? if digital CD sucked the life out of the album, why didnt the rip do the same....who knows, must be something involved in the mastering for the CD, the players I've played them back on is most likely... So that makes one wonder if the old original Non oversampling players would be more satisfying but the only nos players ive heard are the original sony and phillips that came out in mid 80's and cannot recall how it differed from the later 80's oversampling...and the vinyl WAV rips are so good, that there is no interest in tracking down a NOS cd player to check


so takeway imo is make nice copies of the vinyl and get a decent DAC (and even that is not that important to my ears if one has a good rip).....now when you rip an album, its best to pick the best table, cart and arm for that album as once it's ripped, that will be the 'sound' of that album forever....so spent alot of time trying and ripping various setups - and then years enjoying them via WAV, and then separated the best rip of each album, filing the rest away for posterity.

one man's story from analog to digital existence
 

adaug

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So the obvious question comes...why is the 'digital' rip so satisfying and a near exact listen as the pure vinyl? if digital CD sucked the life out of the album, why didnt the rip do the same....who knows, must be something involved in the mastering for the CD, the players I've played them back on is most likely...

so takeway imo is make nice copies of the vinyl and get a decent DAC (and even that is not that important to my ears if one has a good rip).....now when you rip an album, its best to pick the best table, cart and arm for that album as once it's ripped, that will be the 'sound' of that album forever....so spent alot of time trying and ripping various setups - and then years enjoying them via WAV, and then separated the best rip of each album, filing the rest away for posterity.
wow that is interesting. maybe this is a known phenomenon but its new to me.

does the superiority of the vinyl rip survive being burned on to a cd-r?
 
yes it does. in fact that is the main way i archived....used a few different CDrecorders. marantz and tascam being my favs. although this does add a touch of the recorders signature....the cleanest way to archive is to rip it directly to the computer using an interface i would think...in any case, yes the lp survived even the digital recording process. you lose a bit like i metnioned but believe me. as a full on analog'r, i was not expecting the results....but that was well over ten yrs ago, and so there has been plenty of time listening to verify these results and never looked back...for me, the only reason to spin vinyl any longer is the tactile experience and the full album side experience which has value, but as to sonics....perfectly content with the vinyl to WAV......whats more is the rips even transfered to 320 mp3 decent..now there you lose another maybe 20% but still, it's often preferable to the full WAV or CD rip of same album.....so the vinyl even makes it to mp3 to a degree. and if one is listening on mid fi gear, those mp3 flaws are not as aparent and the mp3 vinyl rip enjoyment is just fine....ive come across a few other people who have spent this time archiving to wav and they've noticed the same positive outcomes. But probably the larger community would not realize this until and unless they've done quality archiving and then comparing. But it would be a simple experiment for anyone or at a meetup etc to take a good (not even great) vinyl setup and record some albums and then blind compare them back to the vinyl itself.....just dont forget the DAC injects its signature in this case. and High end DAC's can be even more colored than cheap $100 units in my experience...so one would want to ABC the rips with a couple different DACs when blind comparing them to the vinyl
 
another interesting thing is listening to the various rips of albums over time - some albums where ripped on half dozen different rigs (diff table, arm, cart, stylus' etc) and obviously they vary accordingly...that is why over time the cream rises to the top and its apparent that there are a couple rigs that suited particular album best and that is what survives as the listening example that is enjoyed daily.. the others recede in storage on external drives just in case.....
 

adaug

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Resurrecting this interesting thread. Was reminded of it because of the digital/analog issues discussed in the mofi thread. Anyone else have relevant experiences to share?
 

JohnVF

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Resurrecting this interesting thread. Was reminded of it because of the digital/analog issues discussed in the mofi thread. Anyone else have relevant experiences to share?
Just that I've also recorded vinyl to digital and it's sounded like vinyl. Which isn't surprising to me as vinyl sounds like vinyl not because its 'analog' but because you're playing back music with a diamond on the end of a stick with magnets on the other end inducing an electrical signal. It has a sound and I like that sound. It's, I supposed, 'distortion', but I like it and it furthers the illusion of real music, to my ears.
 

mhardy6647

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And don't forget, when it comes to records: there's that rather unsubtle EQ curve applied to work around the physics of cutting a master which is then "undone" by the playback preamplifier. :)

Here's the RIAA preemphasis/deemphasis curves used on modern LPs.
40 dB covers a lot of ground (four orders of magnitude; i.e., 10000-fold). ;)
1200px-RIAA-EQ-Curve_rec_play.svg.png

The other interesting thing about LP record mastering (and now I am out of my depth, so I add this important disclaimer: as I understand it) is that low frequency program content below some cutoff frequency (which is unknown to me) is mixed to mono, and (typically, and, again, as I understand it) a rolloff is applied as frequencies approach the infrasonic.
These techniques - I think :o - are used to minimize issues with rumble, arm/cartridge resonance, and general LF nastiness (feedback and vibration sensitivity) that are unique to records as storage media for audio recordings. Bass can be handled very differently in the digital world, since the problems with playing a record (all?!?) go away. ;)
 

JohnVF

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And don't forget, when it comes to records: there's that rather unsubtle EQ curve applied to work around the physics of cutting a master which is then "undone" by the playback preamplifier. :)

Here's the RIAA preemphasis/deemphasis curves used on modern LPs.
40 dB covers a lot of ground (four orders of magnitude; i.e., 10000-fold). ;)
1200px-RIAA-EQ-Curve_rec_play.svg.png

The other interesting thing about LP record mastering (and now I am out of my depth, so I add this important disclaimer: as I understand it) is that low frequency program content below some cutoff frequency (which is unknown to me) is mixed to mono, and (typically, and, again, as I understand it) a rolloff is applied as frequencies approach the infrasonic.
These techniques - I think :o - are used to minimize issues with rumble, arm/cartridge resonance, and general LF nastiness (feedback and vibration sensitivity) that are unique to records as storage media for audio recordings. Bass can be handled very differently in the digital world, since the problems with playing a record (all?!?) go away. ;)
It's pretty amazing that what comes out the other end sounds so good.

I'm aware of all the potential problems with it, how its not 'perfect' and measures much worse than the best digital. Yet it sounds more real to me and I'm not bothered by the discrepancy. You won't find me defending vinyl on objective means, you'll just find me listening to it.
 
I'm aware of all the potential problems with it, how its not 'perfect' and measures much worse than the best digital. Yet it sounds more real to me and I'm not bothered by the discrepancy. You won't find me defending vinyl on objective means, you'll just find me listening to it.
Same here. Some days I just enjoy the sound of vinyl. Others, I'll hit the digital and be happy just to relax after a particularly rough day (health-wise). I've made a lot of upgrades to my system in the past year so I'm pretty much locked into a good, clean sound that I enjoy listening to.

In fact, I hate my turntable. There are days I need to get things done and I just keep playing records. I haven't had this enjoyment with records in many, many years.
 

JohnVF

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Same here. Some days I just enjoy the sound of vinyl. Others, I'll hit the digital and be happy just to relax after a particularly rough day (health-wise). I've made a lot of upgrades to my system in the past year so I'm pretty much locked into a good, clean sound that I enjoy listening to.

In fact, I hate my turntable. There are days I need to get things done and I just keep playing records. I haven't had this enjoyment with records in many, many years.
When somebody says "vinyl sounds better than digital" I'm always countering with "what vinyl? what digital?"... like who can make such a broad statement with any seriousness? And why do so many feel that one has to win? That's its zero-sum? They're both good at different things.
 

adaug

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When somebody says "vinyl sounds better than digital" I'm always countering with "what vinyl? what digital?"... like who can make such a broad statement with any seriousness? And why do so many feel that one has to win? That's its zero-sum? They're both good at different things.
i was a staunch "vinyl rules" advocate for decades. but i too have come to the middle. both vinyl and digital can sound amazing. or not.

and they certainly dont need to be part of a battle. definitely places for both~!
 

mhardy6647

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It's pretty amazing that what comes out the other end sounds so good.

I'm aware of all the potential problems with it, how its not 'perfect' and measures much worse than the best digital. Yet it sounds more real to me and I'm not bothered by the discrepancy. You won't find me defending vinyl on objective means, you'll just find me listening to it.
Well put.
I hope y'all noticed I tried to write that previous post in as agnostic a manner as I could muster. ;)
I do think digital mastering and reproduction may have a quantitative :confused: 😎 edge for bass reproduction, though (and FWIW).
 
When somebody says "vinyl sounds better than digital" I'm always countering with "what vinyl? what digital?"... like who can make such a broad statement with any seriousness? And why do so many feel that one has to win? That's its zero-sum? They're both good at different things.
A lot of the differences for me come down to mastering. I have some audiophile vinyl reissues of older albums that never had a good digital remastering, and they make for nice needle drops in the car or around the house. I also own many records that never had a digital reissue, or if they did, they were briefly reissued in Japan and are now very expensive to purchase on CD. Why pay $50-$100 for a CD when a clean LP is $10-$20? (And I can sometimes find sealed new old stock records very affordably.)

Classical is a natural for digital, especially DSD or hi-res PCM. Yet I have a few titles on vinyl (two from Analogue Productions, the other from Classic Records) that play back quietly and sound fantastic. It's a treat to listen to those, and the sound on these is so close to the SACDs as to be a wash. Some others I have (like older shaded dog RCAs) are also in decent condition and I'll play those when I'm in the mood. It still amazes me that records made 50 to 60+ years ago sound as good as they do.

And part of it, yes, is nostalgia--I originally played many of these records when they first came out in the 70s and 80s, and playing a digital file I've ripped isn't quite the same.

One thing I've cut back on is buying new vinyl, though--for those, I'll get the high-res download from Qobuz. I have such a backlog at Discogs of titles I want a lot more than newer releases (most of them sealed new old stock, many under $10). Unless it's an artist or band I like to support--I'll sometimes buy a limited edition vinyl version for that reason, even if the pressing and mastering isn't so hot.

Nope, neither digital nor wins here either. I'm with ya. I can like both. 👍
 
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