Opinions on subwoofers?

I've become a huge believer in using subs, at least as far as what I've experienced with my 604s. I don't really think of them as 'subs' actually, as they don't go real low - that's not what I was after. I wanted to flesh-out the bottom of the Altecs - add a little extension, step up the dynamics, experience a little of the heft (balls?), control & tunability a SS amp and digital EQ make possible. The bitch of this though (IMO), is to do all this in a audibly seamless way, without negatively impacting all the goodness you may have spun around those 604s in the first place.

I got there (to my ear) by leaving the SET/Altec system essentially alone, running full range off a separate set of line-outs from my pre-amp. I did back out some of the bass aimed tweaks like corner placement, some amp, tube and component choices etc. as I now get to optimize from about 100Hz up. As a bonus, not worrying about bass extension let the SET/Altec side of things soar even higher than they did before - i.e. I'm not messing with anything more powerful than 2A3 or single-ended EL84, even found peace and extreme satisfaction with 45 tubes.

The bass system is all stand-alone woofers, cabinets, SS amp & EQ'ed to get the most out of it. I did use helper woofers that closely matched the efficiency, dynamics and tone of the 604s (Altec 604-8G and 15" alnico 416As - drivers from the same era) because I had heard many Altec sub integrations that didn't really work or 'gel' in a seamless way. Flame shield up; subs, especially with Altecs, often sound 'slow' to me, and this seems to have been avoided by using large, high-eff woofers that barely move (excurt?) to get the job done. The 416As probably only go down to 30-35Hz or so, but they are cut from the same cloth as the 604s and essentially sound invisible - until you turn them off!

It does seem ridiculous to have to add 'subs' to giant 9cuft 15" driver speakers to help in the bass, but the effect for me on 604s has been sublime - no going back.

Same for me as @billfort ,
It never really came together until I tried Altec drivers for the bottom .
2 421 8lf drivers.
After that it was just fine tuning, but the flavor of all the Altec goodness started coming to last bit of low end

I’m using my 605’s in H-frames for my bottom. Had the running off the plate amps I pulled out of my pair of subs, but then I went down the rabbit hole known as JELabs. He had a chapter by “Briggs on Open Baffle” where he talked about running a woofer parallel with the full range driver…so I did it. I really like the bottom I’m hearing from the H-frames…not boomy like the other subs.

MrEd, you may have a home for those 421’s with those WE 7331 cabinets.

RPMac said:

I’m using my 605’s in H-frames for my bottom. Had the running off the plate amps I pulled out of my pair of subs, but then I went down the rabbit hole known as JELabs. He had a chapter by “Briggs on Open Baffle” where he talked about running a woofer parallel with the full range driver…so I did it. I really like the bottom I’m hearing from the H-frames…not boomy like the other subs.

MrEd, you may have a home for those 421’s with those WE 7331 cabinets.

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I am pretty sure of that... 😊
I hope to get back to complete my second TA 7331 after next week.

Fran604g said:

A sub is something I've wanted to add for about, forever. I tried a single 10 inch Altec (Anaheim, iirc) sub once, and hated it. It was fat and slow - like me.

I understood the sub was the trouble and I'd need to actually spend some time and money to do it right, but I just haven't gotten there. I still would like to, and your report brings me renewed optimism. I don't want to/can't build my own cabinets, but the thought of buying 2 subs that might not integrate well really turns me off.

Fran

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I too started with a single sub (theater 12” jbl sub). At first it did seem slow, it also drowned out the magical midrange (I was so unhappy that I literally turned it off for a day) and only after sever tweaking/placement did it sound half decent. Now two subs that are properly integrated, is a whole different story. I am running my modern 10’s at about a 1/4 their capacity and am getting that right amount of low end that I was missing. And the beauty in that, is that they only give bass when a song calls for it; not artificially added or multiplied. Also they are in sealed enclosures so the bass is quick and tight (no lingering vibrations/notes).

I’ve been using subs off and on for two ch for years and only until I got them dialed in using REW did I have a seamless integration. I had dual Velodyne HGS 12’s previously and now using a single JTR Captivator RS1, I didn’t have room for two of these beasts in my last house but in my new house I have a much larger room so another one will be added to the setup. The key though is getting your sub/s integrated properly into your setup, most of the time people have their crossover and gain too high but all that is set right if using REW or Dirac Live, or simply turning them down and adjust up until you hear the subs from your listening position then back off from there.

Audiofreak71

I’ve heard many subs integrated adequately to spectacularly- spectacular examples (or at least pretty good) are very possible. My friend AudioDon was able to make subs work in just about any difficult room so he gets lots of credit there for making what seemed daunting sound right. Our own @jblnut had done a seamless integration in his setup- one of the best integrations (and end results) I’ve yet heard. Another friend, using decent but not spectacular gear was able to do an exceptional job that he’d likely freely admit was equal parts skill, good luck and the extremely fortunate benefits of excellent and accommodating room acoustics.

I’m running through some various subs here (singles, multiples, external amps, actives, passives) but my room isn’t ideal and even when I’m successful in my experimentation, while the change is notable and at least the level of a mild improvement, it’s not ever reached a revolutionary result (with my tower speakers in use). I have to chalk this up to the space I’m currently dealing with presenting hurdles for me as the major culprit.

But with equipment that’s complimentary and a correct match to your current gear, a room that’s friendly and accommodating, a bit of luck and plenty of effort and fine tuning, I’ve heard subs present themselves seamlessly, never drawing attention to themselves, and enhancing the experience with an ability to flesh things out hard to achieve without using a sub.

RPMac said:

I’m using my 605’s in H-frames for my bottom. Had the running off the plate amps I pulled out of my pair of subs, but then I went down the rabbit hole known as JELabs. He had a chapter by “Briggs on Open Baffle” where he talked about running a woofer parallel with the full range driver…so I did it. I really like the bottom I’m hearing from the H-frames…not boomy like the other subs.

MrEd, you may have a home for those 421’s with those WE 7331 cabinets.

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I need to revise my post above…when I paralleled the 605 and 414, I went through my Markwart crossover to the 605, disconnecting high side of the crossover. Next step is to use another amp on the “605 sub” experiment.

I too am starting to integrate subs. For the holidays I moved the Coral Beta 10's into the main lounge sine the Xmas tree was smack dab between my speakers and I needed something a bit more appropriate scale wise. The Beta 10 are absolutely wonderful but like most full range efficient speakers we all love here, just don't have much below 60 (best guess) on their own, even with the passive radiator. Everything else is fantastic including the top end. Think Lowther.

I figured this would be a good time to add in a subwoofer . I've had a Janis W-3 for some time now. It's a 12" and is much like a band pass type design. Has it's own separate amp crossover module and is meant to be used with music not movies. It's old. Really glad I did. Played around with placement and based on many recommendations it ended up on a side wall and just melted into the Corals.

This is something I think I will start doing more of. I also have a pair of RH Labs passive subwoofers that I should finally give a try with DSP.

Deli said:

I’ve heard many subs integrated adequately to spectacularly- spectacular examples (or at least pretty good) are very possible. My friend AudioDon was able to make subs work in just about any difficult room so he gets lots of credit there for making what seemed daunting sound right. Our own @jblnut had done a seamless integration in his setup- one of the best integrations (and end results) I’ve yet heard. Another friend, using decent but not spectacular gear was able to do an exceptional job that he’d likely freely admit was equal parts skill, good luck and the extremely fortunate benefits of excellent and accommodating room ...

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Thanks for the kind words Deli. Your ears are very good so this means a lot. Getting subs to sound right does take a good measure of luck, skill, equipment and room. I would love to get your opinion on where I am now as it's even better than what you heard. The mains go much lower than before, I have a dbx 360 that I can use to dial in the big JBL sub with using an iPad and I also have a 15 inch velodyne in the room ;-).

I will admit to being a bass guy....

jblnut said:

Thanks for the kind words Deli. Your ears are very good so this means a lot. Getting subs to sound right does take a good measure of luck, skill, equipment and room. I would love to get your opinion on where I am now as it's even better than what you heard. The mains go much lower than before, I have a dbx 360 that I can use to dial in the big JBL sub with using an iPad and I also have a 15 inch velodyne in the room ;-).

I will admit to being a bass guy....

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Well you did a fine job integrating one into your prior system. Eventually I hope to make it back to your place to see what you’ve improved on.

marantzfan said:

Yep. 604’s and subs is absolutely a fantastic combination!

Marantzfan's System

Here is where I am today. Speakers: Altec 604-8G in custom 620 Cabinets I built a few years ago and Markwart crossovers. http://www.hifihaven.org/forum/hi-ef...duplex-journey Dayton 15" Reference HO Subwoofers http://www.hifihaven.org/forum/speak...ubwoofer-build DSpeaker Anti-Mode DSP (For...

hifihaven.org

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It’s funny, I took a pass on a pair of RSS390HO-4 recently. It kills me, as they were only $50 for the pair, but I consider declining them a sign of personal growth.

Let me explain: when I arrived, I was greeted with the most exquisitely overbuilt DIY subs I’ve ever seen. The seller had not exaggerated size and weight. They were every bit of 6 cu. ft. and made of 3” thick MDF with cherry tops and trim. It looked like he never quite got around to completely finishing them once they were operational. Think ROTJ Death Star.

Anyway, even though I felt fairly sure I could get both of them in the back of the Outback, I no idea what damage I’d do to the suspension, how I’d unload them once I was home, how in the hell I’d get them into the basement, or what I’d do when my partner left me.

I drove the hour home feeling inordinately proud of myself, and the SVS turned up a month later.

I keep seeing this thread pop up. So here is My opinion only!…and for my system only! I hate subs. I used them extensively in the past and had some very good ones. REL (several), Hsu Research (several), SVS, Paradigm (several), Era Design, B&W, Martin Logan to name but a few. Just didn’t think I could live without one. When I first started using subs I had my music system and home theater integrated. It made sense then.

As soon as I separated out the two systems I started to evaluate subs differently. I’m very good at sub setup and integration however I just can’t unhear a sub after I have heard speakers without one. At first I marvel at the goodness and then the tweaking begins and then I unhook the dang thing and relief sets in. I just don’t need that extra octave or two to suspend disbelief. There was a time though…

Also, I listen at very low volume…I can have AC/DC sounding like it’s pounding in my tiny space, late at night with Harbeth P3’s at 60 db…it’s all about perspective and such. So that’s where I am on that…however I never say never to anything…mostly!

ArtK said:

I keep seeing this thread pop up. So here is My opinion only!…and for my system only! I hate subs. I used them extensively in the past and had some very good ones. REL (several), Hsu Research (several), SVS, Paradigm (several), Era Design, B&W, Martin Logan to name but a few. Just didn’t think I could live without one. When I first started using subs I had my music system and home theater integrated. It made sense then.

As soon as I separated out the two systems I started to evaluate subs differently. I’m very good at sub setup and integration however I just can’t unhear a sub after I have heard speakers without one. At first I marvel at the goodness and then the tweaking begins and then I unhook the dang thing and relief sets in. I just don’t need that extra octave or two to suspend disbelief. There was a time though…

Also, I listen at very low volume…I can have AC/DC sounding like it’s pounding in my tiny space, late at night with Harbeth P3’s at 60 db…it’s all about perspective and such. So that’s where I am on that…however I never say never to anything…mostly!

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I think I’m headed in your direction, but I still think I need something. I hooked my plate amps to some foster 166’s in some small boxes…that might have been the right amount of sub.