LMS and Squeezelite for Raspberry Pi

Nothing I could find indicated Tidal would be supported so I migrated to Qobuz. Lost some favourites and some tunes off my playlist but overall, fairly painless switch.

While I'm sure you will like Qobuz too, there is now a TIDAL plugin available (requires a running local instance of LMS). It is described as in alpha testing, however I've seen various references on the Slim Devices forum and also the WiiM forum indicating it working just fine.

You have to unselect (and unpin from the Home Screen) the original TIDAL plugin that was authored by Logitech, then enable the new one which is found in Server → Plugins → 3rd party plugins.

All of the above assumes you were already running a local instance of LMS, and not just simply using mysqueezebox.com for app/plugin support.

One bonus here with the local server plugin is said to be much speedier performance with TIDAL as opposed to when previously accessing it through mysqueezebox.com.
 
I tried the Tidal mod to picoreplayer. If it needs a different Tidal plugin, then that would explain why it didn't seem to work as advertised.

I don't have another Tidal plgin other than the Logitech one. I have a local LMS.

Previously, the Tidal app was slow. As I'm still on a free trial with Qobuz and Tidal would be my preference, I'd like to find the other Tidal plugin to try.
 
I tried the Tidal mod to picoreplayer. If it needs a different Tidal plugin, then that would explain why it didn't seem to work as advertised.

Yes disable the old one and unpin it from your Home screen to avoid mistaking it for the new one when you go to use it.

I don't have another Tidal plgin other than the Logitech one. I have a local LMS.

I do see it in LMS 8.3.1, called "TIDAL local" under 3rd party plugins:

Screenshot 2024-02-16 at 2.20.09 PM.png
 
Thanks, that did the trick. I needed a later LMS. Back to Tidal and left my free for a month Qobuz. Be fun to see if there's a difference.
 
Thanks, that did the trick. I needed a later LMS. Back to Tidal and left my free for a month Qobuz. Be fun to see if there's a difference.

Good deal, I'm glad to see the open source community developers were able to jump on this TIDAL issue and have a test solution in place in just a week or two. I imagine a similar fix for Pandora and Deezer users will be forthcoming.

I see they've also managed to get Logitech to delay the sunset of the support website/forum for 1 whole year, so they've now got plenty of time to figure out exactly how they want to handle the migration of that very valuable content to a new site.

I've also seen a couple of references to the inevitability of a forthcoming name change for LMS, and I guess thats not surprising given Logitech wouldn't be able to let them use that brand name anymore. I wonder if Logitech would allow the use of the older SlimServer or SqueezeCenter monikers, given Logitech themselves had stopped using those a very long time ago. I think even for that to happen Logitech would have to cede that trademarked name, and that becomes a legal issue where freeing it entirely means anyone can use the name, which is unlikely to happen, more likely they would only agree to transfer that trademark to some other legal entity.

That's also at the heart of the problem with TIDAL, Pandora, and Deezer, it's not actually a technical issue per se but a legal one. They only want to enter into an agreement to access their APIs with a legal entity, and the open source developer community isn't any such thing. Unlike Qobuz and Spotify which do allow that sort of access, TIDAL, Pandora, and Deezer do not, which is why their services were gone when the mysqueezebox.com servers were shuttered by Logitech. Somehow the open source developers have cobbled together a TIDAL solution that works on your local server instance despite no official access to that API.
 
Well I bought a WiiM Pro so I can stream Pandora and access my music library from the same source, but it would just swell if I could continue to use the three Squeezebox devices too.
 
Well I bought a WiiM Pro so I can stream Pandora and access my music library from the same source, but it would just swell if I could continue to use the three Squeezebox devices too.

You can, all you need is a locally running instance of LMS, on a Raspberry Pi for instance, or just about any other existing Windows, macOS, or Linux computer. I'd recommend piCorePlayer on a Raspberry Pi 4B for that, very low energy consumption and great performance.

The Pandora plugin necessary for restoring access via a locally running LMS is already under development as above with TIDAL, it is called Pyrrha (Pandora's daughter) and it will be available as a plugin soon. Right now you have to side load/manually install it which is a bit more complicated, but that will change shortly.

This will likely require the paid version of Pandora if I'm not mistaken, it probably won't work with the free/ad supported version.
 
You can, all you need is a locally running instance of LMS, on a Raspberry Pi for instance, or just about any other existing Windows, macOS, or Linux computer. I'd recommend piCorePlayer on a Raspberry Pi 4B for that, very low energy consumption and great performance.

The Pandora plugin necessary for restoring access via a locally running LMS is already under development as above with TIDAL, it is called Pyrrha (Pandora's daughter) and it will be available as a plugin soon. Right now you have to side load/manually install it which is a bit more complicated, but that will change shortly.

This will likely require the paid version of Pandora if I'm not mistaken, it probably won't work with the free/ad supported version.
I do pay the Pandora subscription monthly, and I have a RPi 4 already set up with piCorePlayer and working. I just prefer using the screen on the Touch. LMS is running on my PC.

You're saying I can stream Pandora using this setup?

I wasn't 100% sure about buying the WiiM, but I put in the Amazon cart and my wife saw it bought it for me as a Valentine's day gift.
I guess there are worse problems to have than 'too many streaming devices' as I now have 5 (2 Touches, 1 Duet, 1 RPi and the WiiM)
 
I have a RPi 4 already set up with piCorePlayer and working. I just prefer using the screen on the Touch. LMS is running on my PC.

OK so you've got various options there, not the least of which would be to use that pCP instance on RPi 4B as your LMS, you can offload that duty from the PC which typically uses far more electricity. I've done that with mine as a modern day Squeezebox Touch, an RPi 4B using one of the KKSB enclosures and the RPi 7" touch screen display as below, mine is running pCP and Jivelite which ends up looking just like a SB Touch in terms of what is displayed.
RPi 4B touchstand.jpg
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You're saying I can stream Pandora using this setup?

Yes, although I just checked the available LMS plugins and Pyrrha hasn't yet been published, so currently you'd have to jump through the hoops of a side load/manual install. I'd say skip that and just wait a bit more for them to publish the Pyrrha plugin, then just install that as normal on your LMS instance.


I guess there are worse problems to have than 'too many streaming devices' as I now have 5 (2 Touches, 1 Duet, 1 RPi and the WiiM)

Definitely a 1st world problem, and for right now you can just use the WiiM Home app to access Pandora, but know that the necessary plugin for LMS called Pyrrha is in development and coming soon.
 
piCorePlayer 9.0.0 has updated to release candidate 2 status. No insitu update from the previous version is available, download and install new image only.
 
piCorePlayer 9.0.0 has now updated to release candidate 3 status. This time there is an insitu update available by first running a Patch Update → Reboot, then run a Full Update.

Screenshot 2024-02-24 at 4.58.24 PM.png
 
The pCP developer has indicated that the last remaining item to sort out with pCP 9.0.0-rc3 is the handling of display screens, after which it should be ready for general release.

I setup a new instance tonight using a new inexpensive RPi 5 enclosure from Vilros they call Wave:

Image.jpeg

This is an all-metal heat sink enclosure, but it also offers a 30mm fan inside and vents for active cooling. The fan is pretty loud, but I only heard it on the first boot up of this unit, after configuration the pCP software is running at a very cool 40℃ with just the passive cooling of the case as heat sink, so the fan doesn't turn on at all:

Screenshot 2024-02-28 at 8.43.31 PM.png

If the pricier heat sink cases bust the budget for an RPi 5 build, definitely consider this $14.99 enclosure from Vilros as a nice looking alternative that allows the board to run cool at a very reasonable cost.
 
Is anyone aware of any sound quality differences between picoreplayer and Moode?
Late to this thread. I still own a Squeezebox Classic and Touch (used now only as a clock). I have been using Moode for many years. My main system source consists of an RPi Zero W/Kali/ProtoDAC running Moode via weak Wifi (-65dBm) with the library (140,000+ files) on a Windows i7 computer. The problem was that library updates could take 6 or more hours. I moved some of the library to a locally attached SSD, which is much better. The problem is system design, with the RPi doing too much library management.

Someone suggested trying pCP/LMS, because it sounded better than Moode. LMS/pCP also makes more sense with a Zero W. Library management on an i7 computer, the RPi just plays files. The original Slimp3 ran on a 20MHz microcontroller.

Unfortunately, sound quality of pCP/Squeezelite is not as good as Moode MPD. I have tried the generic I2S DAC settings , ES9023 and TI5102. There may be a way to get it to sound better with settings, but I don't know how to do that. I did comparisons of Moode MPD and the Squeezelite renderer. I also compared Moode MPD to pCP.

I listen mostly to live recordings of classical orchestra. MPD has a more "refined" sound overall, with finer detail. The hall reflections are much more apparent with MPD. The ES9023 setting has a more forward sound. The perceived loudness is higher than MPD. MPD has a more realistic 3D perspective. The TI5102 setting was less forward sounding, but less hall reflections even when the loudness is compensated. These findings could be system (DAC) dependent. Comparing MPD to pCP requires some time to switch the SD cards and restart the system, but the difference is apparent in just a few seconds.
 
I have been using Moode for many years. My main system source consists of an RPi Zero W/Kali/ProtoDAC running Moode via weak Wifi (-65dBm) with the library (140,000+ files) on a Windows i7 computer. The problem was that library updates could take 6 or more hours.

If the library is on an i7 Windows instance, I have no idea why a library update would take so long, what is the server software in use on that computer, Foobar 2K?

You should not be trying to catalog a large library with the RPi Zero W, at a minimum you'd want to upgrade that to the Zero 2W, but better yet don't use the RPi at all for cataloging and indexing the library, have the Windows computer handle all of that, and just use the RPi as an endpoint/player.

Someone suggested trying pCP/LMS, because it sounded better than Moode.

Subjective take and prone to a ton of variables.

LMS/pCP also makes more sense with a Zero W.

It does, pCP is even slimmer than Moode, though Moode does run perfectly well (as an endpoint) on the Zero W.

Library management on an i7 computer, the RPi just plays files.

Yes although if you ditch the Zero W in favor of an RPi 3B+, 4B, or RPi 5, then you can easily have pCP act as both LMS (local library) and Squeezelite renderer (endpoint/player) simultaneously. That instance can serve files to itself for playback, or to any other Squeeze endpoint that you have.

Unfortunately, sound quality of pCP/Squeezelite is not as good as Moode MPD.

I would say that has not been my experience, and though a lot of this is very subjective, you also need to take great pains in making sure it is a level playing field for the comparison. For example, many folks mistakenly leave the digital volume control active or just fail to fully address all of the relevant settings that allow for pCP to produce bit perfect output. In theory if both MPD and Squeezelite are setup to produce a bit perfect output, there should be tiny (some would say infinitesimal) differences between them when using the very same DAC. YMMV of course, but there shouldn't be any big sonic difference unless a setting such as digital volume control is preventing bit perfect output.

The ES9023 setting has a more forward sound. The perceived loudness is higher than MPD. MPD has a more realistic 3D perspective. The TI5102 setting was less forward sounding, but less hall reflections even when the loudness is compensated. These findings could be system (DAC) dependent.

They are definitely going to be at least somewhat system dependent, and I'm not familiar with that DAC's sound. I also don't really get how both the TI5102 and ES9023 Linux drivers could work with that DAC as they are two very different chipsets, and that could also definitely produce a different sonic flavor. What does the ProtoDAC designer recommend using, either/or?

Comparing MPD to pCP requires some time to switch the SD cards and restart the system, but the difference is apparent in just a few seconds.

You don't want to be in a hurry comparing anyway, fast switching back and forth is not the way to go, you want to carefully address all settings and then leave one instance in place and let both it and you settle in for days or even weeks. Then make the switch back and repeat the same careful attention to settings, and once again let the changed system settle back in over days and weeks to form your judgement. I'm not a "bits are bits" type of guy at all, and I'm aware of various folks feeling Moode just has that certain something extra sonically, and I don't necessarily disagree, but preconceived notions (expectation bias) are a very powerful thing.
 
If the library is on an i7 Windows instance, I have no idea why a library update would take so long, what is the server software in use on that computer, Foobar 2K?
Because the RPi Zero W is doing the library cataloging and indexing with Moode. Windows is merely the file server.
You should not be trying to catalog a large library with the RPi Zero W, at a minimum you'd want to upgrade that to the Zero 2W, but better yet don't use the RPi at all for cataloging and indexing the library, have the Windows computer handle all of that, and just use the RPi as an endpoint/player.
RPi Zero W is lower noise with single core compared to RPi2B. I plan to use a 2W soon.
Subjective take and prone to a ton of variables.
Yes, of course. Needed to hear it for myself.
It does, pCP is even slimmer than Moode, though Moode does run perfectly well (as an endpoint) on the Zero W.
Yes, the Zero W runs perfectly well. No problem playing ripped dsf files. The only problem is library updates with a large library and weak Wifi.
Yes although if you ditch the Zero W in favor of an RPi 3B+, 4B, or RPi 5, then you can easily have pCP act as both LMS (local library) and Squeezelite renderer (endpoint/player) simultaneously. That instance can serve files to itself for playback, or to any other Squeeze endpoint that you have.



I would say that has not been my experience, and though a lot of this is very subjective, you also need to take great pains in making sure it is a level playing field for the comparison. For example, many folks mistakenly leave the digital volume control active or just fail to fully address all of the relevant settings that allow for pCP to produce bit perfect output. In theory if both MPD and Squeezelite are setup to produce a bit perfect output, there should be tiny (some would say infinitesimal) differences between them when using the very same DAC. YMMV of course, but there shouldn't be any big sonic difference unless a setting such as digital volume control is preventing bit perfect output.
Yes, subjective. This is just my take. At first, I thought it sounded fine, but after listening, I figured out what was wrong with it. The reflected hall sound is not as apparent. Once you hear the problem, you can't unhear it. Settings for 0dB and polarity inversion. Why does it sound different? I don't know.
They are definitely going to be at least somewhat system dependent, and I'm not familiar with that DAC's sound. I also don't really get how both the TI5102 and ES9023 Linux drivers could work with that DAC as they are two very different chipsets, and that could also definitely produce a different sonic flavor. What does the ProtoDAC designer recommend using, either/or?
I am the "designer" of ProtoDAC. It uses a TDA1387*8 module (DAC chips in parallel), passive I/V, NOS, output filterless. TDA1387 is a multibit 16 bit DAC. It will truncate any bits over 16. Capable of 384kHz sample rate. Interface I2S. Format setting in Moode: S16_LE, S24_LE.
You don't want to be in a hurry comparing anyway, fast switching back and forth is not the way to go, you want to carefully address all settings and then leave one instance in place and let both it and you settle in for days or even weeks. Then make the switch back and repeat the same careful attention to settings, and once again let the changed system settle back in over days and weeks to form your judgement. I'm not a "bits are bits" type of guy at all, and I'm aware of various folks feeling Moode just has that certain something extra sonically, and I don't necessarily disagree, but preconceived notions (expectation bias) are a very powerful thing.
Yes, I am aware of ASR. Moode sound quality is due to MPD. MPD made a significant improvement from 0.21 to 0.22. Volumio uses old MPD version. Doesn't sound as good.
 
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I am the "designer" of ProtoDAC.

I thought so but couldn't remember for sure.

Yes, I am aware of ASR.

I don't know what you are alluding to there, as I said, I'm not at all a strict "bits are bits" type of guy, and I definitely have absolutely no interest in ASR (the web site) at all, quite the opposite actually. But I do know in my own case that preconceived notions can shape my comparisons, and it's only after a good long while after switching something back and purposely allowing myself to reconsider what I thought I knew, that sometimes I realize I had convinced myself of something that wasn't real, likely I had fallen victim to my own expectation bias.

Moode sound quality is due to MPD. MPD made a significant improvement from 0.21 to 0.22. Volumio uses old MPD version. Doesn't sound as good.

I've been a Moode user since v2.7, and every single version since (including the ones you had to compile yourself when the MPD police briefly had everyone running scared). I agree it seems to sound just a tad better than Volumio, but I don't think it's a big difference, and ditto for pCP. I am a big Moode fan, posting in the pinned Moode thread here about every update, and I contribute money to their cause. But I don't find any sonic differences to be big, I think they are quite small, just my 2 cents, as I said above, YMMV.

RPi Zero W is lower noise with single core compared to RPi2B. I plan to use a 2W soon.

Fair enough, but by that logic pCP should produce a better result as it's leaner, runs entirely in RAM, with lesser CPU utilization/noise. I think you should consider giving the RPi 4B a chance, many think it sounds better than any previous Pi for audio purposes (unless the DAC has it's own master clocking scheme). There were various articles about that some time ago, Dimdim's blog had a good description of that issue (which was only fully resolved with the RPi 4B):

 
Yes, the differences are not big at all. Apologize for the ASR reference. I was hoping that pCP was going to be the solution, because it makes more sense to have LMS running on the file server. Early on, I thought it was the solution. Unfortunately, in the end it just doesn't sound as good, and sound quality is everything. I continue with Moode, and just have it access the sections of the NAS library that I listen to the most. Problem solved. Sort of. I use Kali as an I2S reclocker. ProtoDAC is a slave DAC. I think this solves the clock issue.
 
I use Kali as an I2S reclocker. ProtoDAC is a slave DAC. I think this solves the clock issue.

It does and I forgot you had stated that in your OP, in theory that levels the playing field with regard to clocking when using the older RPi models.
 
Just to correct my previous post stating "Volumio uses an old MPD version". Volumio 3.631 (26-02-2024) recently updated MPD to 0.23.15-2 . That appears to be the first MPD update since Volumio 2.527 (12-01-2019) MPD 0.20.18 .
 
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