Southeast Michigan's dangerous intersections

I think I found the source of where I saw the alternate I-696 alignments. Unfortunately, the images in the following thread are small, and the original sizes linked off-site are now dead links.

I-696 Location Alternatives - What Could Have Been

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The book the maps come from a 1963 publication from the Michigan State Highway Department called A Planning and Engineering Analysis of the Location and Design Alternatives Considered; Interstate 696.
 
Speaking of Michigan lefts.

A van load of us were headed to Pine Knob for a Genesis concert in the late 70s. :smoke

Being summer, there was road construction everywhere, and we had been detoured off of our usual route.

At one point I started yelling at the driver that he needed to get into the right lane to turn left. Of course, the tunes were very loud, and he could not hear me, so I started pointing and yelling repeatedly, "You gotta turn right to go left, you gotta turn right to go left...."

The funny thing was that Genesis's 'The Carpet Crawlers' was playing and it was the part where they sing, "We've got to get in to get out."

One of the guys thought I was just yelling out the wrong lyrics, he was trying to correct me.

Another guy grasped what I was trying to tell the driver and he also started yelling, "You gotta turn right to go left, you gotta turn right to go left...."

With all the yelling and pointing we missed the turn, but we did make it to the concert in time.

I can't hear that song without thinking of Michigan Lefts.
 
Rudy said:
The Mound Expressway was a lost opportunity.
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It’s closer to happening now as the entire stretch from I696 to M59 has been dubbed “Innovate Mound” and is probably 2 or more years in. Not freeway, but a 3 lane road in both directions.

I’m at 12 and Ryan and it’s been a shitshow for quite a while. I think they are working north to south as it’s almost done north of 15, but we have road closures here recently due to intersection work. They shut down 12 and Mound for a couple weeks and stuck me on an island as 12 was also shut at I75. Now they are pouring here, and my trips to the post office end with a gravel driveway into the lot across the excavation. Earlier this summer they had a huge median seeding happen and within days they were driving all over it and digging it up. Idiots….

FWIW, Mound needed some work as south of 12 it was a pothole heaven; I even made a FB group featuring those craters.

Here’s a link to the official line on it. FWIW, I can’t wait to see the new bike lanes, as drivers treat cyclists like dirt around here. I’d love to see all those involved take a ride on it during rush hour with their children as cars fly by at 60 mph.🤡🤡

innovatemound.org

Mound Road Rebuild

Innovate Mound is an initiative to rebuild one of the most important corridors in Southeast Michigan: Mound Road.
innovatemound.org innovatemound.org
 
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Whoo hoo!! Morphing into a thread to complain about the roads. A favorite pastime for us Southeast Michiganders.
I moved for several reasons but a big part of it was living 1/2 north of Hall Road and its seemingly endless reconstruction and infernal Michigan rights. I lived in Macomb Township which for many years was #1 in population growth and new housing starts (may still be), where the traffic got worse every year for the 20 years I lived there. If you build it they will come. I remember reading an article years ago after they finished converting Hall Road from a 2 lane road to a 8 lane boulevard that the traffic that came with it was many times what they anticipated. Probably should have asked an 18-year-old about that. And Macomb Township continues to put neighborhoods in on the little farmland left in the northern reaches of the township, while the majority of east/west roads are still 2 lanes. It’s a ginormous mess.
 
Andyman said:
I’m at 12 and Ryan and it’s been a shitshow for quite a while.
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And I-75 has been a crapshoot with the ongoing construction--exit/entrance ramp availability seemed to change every time I went out that way, especially 11 Mile and thereabouts. And yes, Mound was rougher than the surface of the moon--getting off at 696 heading north was always a challenge.

Andyman said:
FWIW, I can’t wait to see the new bike lanes, as drivers treat cyclists like dirt around here. I’d love to see all those involved take a ride on it during rush hour with their children as cars fly by at 60 mph.🤡🤡
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The bike lanes through the city of Detroit are a complete joke, especially along Jefferson. Being at the curb, the lane is full of potholes. And then the drivers down there will cut into those lanes to pass traffic or make right turns (even through the "barriers" they've put up). We do indeed live in a bike hostile area. I nearly got creamed just a couple of miles from the house a few years ago. Roseville put in bike lanes along Masonic and in the last few years I've driven down there, I've seen only one bike use them. And same thing there--drivers at Gratiot don't even care and will drive over the bike lanes since they want to get to the red light sooner.

Quite a difference from Boulder and other places in CO. It's a substantial adjustment to get used to watching for bike traffic at each intersection, especially when turning. Most of the drivers in this area can't handle it. Thing is, the visibility of the number of bikes makes you more aware of the bike lanes.

Olson_jr said:
Speaking of Shitshows, Beck Road has had mile-long backups between 6 Mile and I-96 for years. Now they are finally thinking of updating the 2 lane sections.
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A few times I had gotten off at Beck Rd. from M-14 to head south and it was always backed up for at least a couple of traffic light cycles at each light. And that was over 15 years ago. It makes me wonder if the same residents complaining about widening Beck are the same ones who complain that traffic is terrible through there.

JoeThePop said:
And Macomb Township continues to put neighborhoods in on the little farmland left in the northern reaches of the township, while the majority of east/west roads are still 2 lanes. It’s a ginormous mess.
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I haven't driven through Canton but when I moved away, they were building a lot of homes west of Beck Rd. and even Canton Center Rd., and the east/west roads were all (and possibly still are) two lanes. I avoided Cherry Hill even by my house since at rush hour, it would have a half mile long backup in either direction.

I was surprised a few years ago to see that North Ave. north of M-59 had been widened. (We used to have to travel up to the nursing home in Armada, and/or go to some of the farm markets up that way, and North Ave. was an alternate when I-94 was backed up.) I was so used to it being two lanes wide. It's kind of ridiculous how the developers can get away with piling on more new construction without any consideration for existing roads.
 
Rudy said:
And I-75 has been a crapshoot with the ongoing construction--exit/entrance ramp availability seemed to change every time I went out that way, especially 11 Mile and thereabouts. And yes, Mound was rougher than the surface of the moon--getting off at 696 heading north was always a challenge.


The bike lanes through the city of Detroit are a complete joke, especially along Jefferson. Being at the curb, the lane is full of potholes. And then the drivers down there will cut into those lanes to pass traffic or make right turns (even through the "barriers" they've put up). We do indeed live in a bike hostile area. I nearly got creamed just a couple of miles from the house a few years ago. Roseville put in bike lanes along Masonic and in the last few years I've driven down there, I've seen only one bike use them. And same thing there--drivers at Gratiot don't even care and will drive over the bike lanes since they want to get to the red light sooner.

Quite a difference from Boulder and other places in CO. It's a substantial adjustment to get used to watching for bike traffic at each intersection, especially when turning. Most of the drivers in this area can't handle it. Thing is, the visibility of the number of bikes makes you more aware of the bike lanes.


A few times I had gotten off at Beck Rd. from M-14 to head south and it was always backed up for at least a couple of traffic light cycles at each light. And that was over 15 years ago. It makes me wonder if the same residents complaining about widening Beck are the same ones who complain that traffic is terrible through there.


I haven't driven through Canton but when I moved away, they were building a lot of homes west of Beck Rd. and even Canton Center Rd., and the east/west roads were all (and possibly still are) two lanes. I avoided Cherry Hill even by my house since at rush hour, it would have a half mile long backup in either direction.

I was surprised a few years ago to see that North Ave. north of M-59 had been widened. (We used to have to travel up to the nursing home in Armada, and/or go to some of the farm markets up that way, and North Ave. was an alternate when I-94 was backed up.) I was so used to it being two lanes wide. It's kind of ridiculous how the developers can get away with piling on more new construction without any consideration for existing roads.
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As always, it’s all about the money. Township supervisors, trustees and planning commissions see tax revenue (which of course doesn’t go to road improvements) and rezone all the farmland from agricultural to residential and let them build. You should see the Taj Mahal like Fire Stations they have built in the last few years. No concrete block exteriors like the original station, which has since been torn down and rebuilt into a palace. I’m all for giving the fire department what they need to do their jobs safely and efficiently but I get the feeling what they build now is more ego driven and showing off to other municipalities. And then the last straw was they built a new library after having a large 2 story library built about 15 years ago that was shared with the township to the south. I voted for the bonds in the original as I felt it was appropriate for a growing community. There was a satellite library that was just fine in the northern part of our township but that didn’t stop them from building a fancy new library (no vote on special funding for this one) there along with their fancy new township offices to “better serve” residents.

Oops. I’ve managed to shift course into the dangerous category of complaining about taxes. Thing is I’m not a hardcore anti-tax zealot. I’ve voted for the library, voted for expansion of public transportation and other things. It’s just when I see the roads neglected it is maddening. You truly want to serve your residents and make their life better? Build roads before buildings.
 
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JoeThePop said:
Thing is I’m not a hardcore ant-tax zealot.
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I'm with you--using tax proceeds wisely is helping the community. Wasting them on extravagances is not doing anyone a bit of good.

That's one advantage to an established, older community--just about everything has been built out, and any replacement of city buildings is due to age and the building no longer serving its purpose. We had a new court building constructed several years ago. The new one looks modern but it's not flashy in any way. Thankfully there were enough good votes on city council to keep things in check. We have also had upgrades to our nearest fire station that resulted in only internal improvements--they didn't tear it down to build something garish.
 
Rudy said:
I'm with you--using tax proceeds wisely is helping the community. Wasting them on extravagances is not doing anyone a bit of good.

That's one advantage to an established, older community--just about everything has been built out, and any replacement of city buildings is due to age and the building no longer serving its purpose. We had a new court building constructed several years ago. The new one looks modern but it's not flashy in any way. Thankfully there were enough good votes on city council to keep things in check. We have also had upgrades to our nearest fire station that resulted in only internal improvements--they didn't tear it down to build something garish.
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ant-tax?? Tax on ant farmers?
 
The only reason I’m anti-tax is that our governments seen inept at best spending those revenues wisely.
The news reported a 10% shortfall of teachers here due largely burnout and low wages. I also noticed in the Innovate Mound link that apparently we build roads with a 25 year expected lifespan, which seems insane to me; how do you justify building roads with 1/3 the lifespan of the average citizen?

Like I always say, it’s not how much you spend, it’s how you spend it.
 
BTW, this is my hometown Milwaukee County Courthouse. Built in 1931, it is still in use. I fail to see why we “need” newer facilities here in the suburbs.

IMG_8094.jpeg
 
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Andyman said:
I also noticed in the Innovate Mound link that apparently we build roads with a 25 year expected lifespan, which seems insane to me; how do you justify building roads with 1/3 the lifespan of the average citizen?
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That may have something to do with the load that vehicles put on the road, plus the freeze/thaw cycles. Thing is, they expect 25 years but get substantially less in some cases. I recall the east end of 696 had to be done way ahead of schedule due to the concrete used in its prior rebuilding.

Yet look at the rebuilding of the Davison. I think when they rebuilt that section, the original concrete (from the original build) was still in place. 40+ years, I think? It makes you wonder.

We had a stupid repair on Little Mack from 10 Mile to 12 Mile. Rather than remove everything and regrade before pouring all new concrete, some bidder came in with a low offer to mill off the top half of the concrete, then replace those with poured concrete "squares" that were poured on top of a thin layer of felt. No, I'm not making this up. Sure enough, after a year, a substantial number were cracked. They were fixed, but a few years later, many more had cracked, and I think they finally had another contractor come in and cut out those bad sections and pour new patches down to the dirt. So now the road is a hodge podge of the cheap resurfacing and these patches.

Had they resurfaced it like the job they did on Little Mack south of 10 Mile down to Harper, where they removed everything down to the dirt and started fresh, they still wouldn't have to be repairing the road they presumably fixed "long-term."

I have zero civil engineering knowledge but even I knew that the cheap resurfacing would start cracking within a year. And it did. I partly blame the contractor for giving city council a snow job, and also blame city council for falling for it. LIke you say, stupid use of tax dollars. It's like giving a handful of $100 bills to a sailor on shore leave.
 
Andyman said:
BTW, this is my hometown Milwaukee County Courthouse. Built in 1931, it is still in use. I fail to see why we “need” newer facilities here in the suburbs.
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Love those old buildings!

I know, right? I can see expanding and modernizing, but to tear something down for the sake of outdoing the neighboring cities is wasteful. When they tore down and rebuilt 40th District Court, it's mainly because our old one was inefficiently laid out, was aging, and was potentially dangerous based on how they had to lead prisoners through the building in public areas. The new one only takes up a little more space, yet it is still one story tall, and it's modern without being flashy. 40th DC may date back to the 1950s or 1960s, so the building was probably 50-60 years old when it was torn down and rebuilt. They could have made it large and imposing, but for what? We don't have a need for a big barn of a courthouse in a small suburb like this.
 
JohnVF said:
“Jean Baptiste Point DuSable Lake Shore Drive” …because the politicians couldn’t find a compromise on the (unnecessary) re-naming
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JohnVF said:
Speaking of, Congress is now Ida B Wells drive. Nobody told anybody about the change so for a month nobody could find the 290, which Congress, I mean Ida B Wells Drive, becomes. It’s been Congress for like 100 years. Nobody complained.
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Interesting.

I strongly agree with everything else in your description
 
JohnVF said:
Chicago isn’t much better it just has different problems. There’s a point on Milwaukee Ave where it’s two lanes each direction and on one block you have to magically know that the right lane must turn right, and in the next block the left lane must turn left…despite only the pavement being clearly marked, and every other indication looking like both lanes can go straight. It results in mass confusion and has for as long as I’ve lived here.

We have roads with huge intersections where the lanes on the other side don’t line up with the lanes going in. Again, panic and confusion.

We have a road with a name so long that it needs a paragraph indentation. “Jean Baptiste Point DuSable Lake Shore Drive” …because the politicians couldn’t find a compromise on the (unnecessary) re-naming so just included everything on the table. So when this road pops up on google maps the name takes over the screen. For out of towners, the road sign looks like 3 different roads and it’s super confusing.

Speaking of, Congress is now Ida B Wells drive. Nobody told anybody about the change so for a month nobody could find the 290, which Congress, I mean Ida B Wells Drive, becomes. It’s been Congress for like 100 years. Nobody complained.

The Sears tower is now the Willis Tower and soon to be The Chicago Tower…that everybody will call the Sears Tower, and I write this to you from the plaza below the Hancock Building which isn’t the Hancock Building but rather it’s “875 N Michigan” because nobody wanted naming rights after the John R Hancock Co left…because it’ll ALWAYS be the Hancock.

Ugh. It’s too much.
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Speaking of renaming; Pine Knob Music Theater is back after an over 20 year hiatus during which it was named DTE Energy Music Theater. A name that nobody over a certain age ever used. It was always Pine Knob.
 
JoeThePop said:
Speaking of renaming; Pine Knob Music Theater is back after an over 20 year hiatus during which it was named DTE Energy Music Theater. A name that nobody over a certain age ever used. It was always Pine Knob.
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I think even my youngest knew what Pine Knob was before they officially changed the name back. Probably because all of us old fossils still used it. 😁

Olson_jr said:
Speaking of big holes to throw money into on the East Side.
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We must have the same news feed--I saw that yesterday. Aside from the hole in the ground, that kind of machinery is fascinating, although I'd still be apprehensive about being underground while it's in operation.

JohnVF said:
There’s a point on Milwaukee Ave where it’s two lanes each direction and on one block you have to magically know that the right lane must turn right, and in the next block the left lane must turn left…despite only the pavement being clearly marked, and every other indication looking like both lanes can go straight.
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That's like traveling some of the streets in downtown Ann Arbor. The lane you went straight on is suddenly a left turn lane on the next block, and the block following is straight through again. No advance warning or if there is, nobody sees it because pedestrians over there (and drivers, for that matter) don't interpret traffic and jaywalking laws like the rest of the state does, and you're dodging bad drivers and even worse pedestrians, enough so that you can't pay attention to road signage!

JohnVF said:
For out of towners, the road sign looks like 3 different roads and it’s super confusing.
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We have that odd situation with 16 Mile Rd. or rather, the lack of signage for it. We can call it 16 Mile, Metro Parkway, Big Beaver, and finally Quarton, and everyone knows which road we're talking about.

We did get a one street in our city renamed after a television actor recently, Dave Coulier Way, because he grew up on the street. But it's not confusing aside from the additional signage on top of Lange St. But at least it's not as confusing as your lengthy signage for the single road!


JohnVF said:
The Sears tower is now the Willis Tower and soon to be The Chicago Tower…that everybody will call the Sears Tower, and I write this to you from the plaza below the Hancock Building which isn’t the Hancock Building but rather it’s “875 N Michigan” because nobody wanted naming rights after the John R Hancock Co left…because it’ll ALWAYS be the Hancock.
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My last time spending any amount of time in downtown Chicago was the early 90s and I still point out those buildings as being Sears Tower and Hancock Center. Maybe they're the Pine Knobs of the Windy City? 😁
 
Olson_jr said:
Speaking of big holes to throw money into on the East Side.


www.bridgemi.com

Metro Detroit I-75 project nearly done, but with some drama 100 feet below | Bridge Michigan

The massive road project is slated to finish in September, ending years of traffic snarls. Less visible is an underground tunnel boring effort that avoided catastrophe when a silt pocket trapped the project’s boring machine.
www.bridgemi.com www.bridgemi.com
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Did you notice that the tunnel project/13 to 8 Mile will cost 1.4B or 82% of the entire projects budget and 5x what the 13 to 19 Mile/Square Lake cost.

I'm also a little curious what happens to all that water once it winds up in Madison Heights? I recall lakes under the I-75/696 bridges after heavy rains, so pumping is a good thing. I just Googled it up and fortunately it appears they'll dump it into Red Run to carry it away to the Clinton River near Metro Pkwy and Utica. That makes perfect sense as there's no where else for it to go otherwise in MH. That being said, I've seen Red Run get pretty full and fast after a hard rain and adding all the I-75 drainage water could come close to breaching its banks.

We shall see....
 
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