The great cartridge setup discussion.

I don't think we have a thread on cartridge setup, so here goes. This isn't meant as any one person saying this is how you do it- I'm curious what others have learned over the years. We've all been doing this awhile and yet, at least for me, I feel that I learn a bit more every time I set up a cartridge. I'm better at it today than I was a year ago. And better then, than I was ten years ago.

Recently I've been on a bit of a cart binge, resulting from my fascination with low-mass arms and high compliance carts.

Here are some thoughts/opinions that I've acquired over the years. I can't even say they're 'right', they're just ideas I've acquired doing this over and over and over.

-Stylus rake angle is far more important than I used to think it was. I would spend hours trying to cure an 'edge' in the sound, or sibilance, using overhang adjustments. And then I watched a bunch of youtube videos, mostly by SoundSmith, that went into detail about how a stylus actually tracks and...lightbulb... oh, SRA is of course going to matter more than I've assumed and maybe its not an overhang problem. It's not as easy as putting the arm level, especially dealing with old carts with suspect suspensions. While I've not been using a microscope, I have been taking macro-shots of the cantilever and stylus in the groove while a record is playing, and eye-balling it to where the stylus leans just a bit forward of 90 degrees seems to work best. Though, that said, that angle of stylus in the groove with the AT cart I just put on, is achieved with the arm a bit lower than level. With the Acutex I just took off, that was achieved with the arm a bit above level. When I got it right on both, any edge disappeared. I judge mostly by how "th" sounds sound. When they're not sibilant, when they just kind of go by without being accentuated, I feel I'm in a good place. I think some call this "diction" in singing, though...maybe I'm imagining that.

-If an arm is designed to use a particular geometry, I don't assume that I know better than the people who made the arm. I use that geometry. Sometimes this means keeping my various protractors in a box and just going by overhang. Which means double checking the arm mounting distance and then checking it again. One particularly extreme case was a Tokyo Sound arm. Bearwald was not at all achievable on that arm but when I used to internet sleuthing skills to find the actual overhang numbers buried in a manual on some foreign language site... it tracked very well. Also nothing bugs me more than seeing a cart with an extreme twist to force some geometry onto an arm that was made for another one. That Steve Guttenberg dude does that on his SL-1200g and it annoys the crap out of me. Maybe that's the only reason it bugs me...HIM.

-I have a fozgometer, but none of my current tables have easy azimuth adjustment. Sometimes for my sanity I think its best to just pretend that something is right if I can't hear anything wrong. I know, I know azimuth is important. I've sat through a whole 'class' on it. But, yeah, sometimes life's too short to use shims. Just a personal opinion. Mostly it affects imaging/channel separation but in better made carts it seems that 'level' is ...well, its good enough for me. YMMV. But use a fozgometer if you have one, its super easy and does work.

-High compliance carts like low mass arms. Surprise! They really do. But they also like a bit of lateral resistance. If you have a damping trough, like the SME-V and AT-1100 do, use them! Ignore the people on the internet who say they don't do anything. They do. They help fill out the bass and they help the cart track the groove cleanly.

-Getting overhang is important but no more important than SRA, VTF, etc. Ok, maybe its more important than Azimuth.

-Having the right tools means EVERYTHING. From protractors, to digital scales, to some way to magnify the stylus in the groove to rough-in SRA (I use a camera with a macro lens but also have a USB microscope), to the TWEEZERS you use to push the tags onto the pins, or reverse. I have a VERY nice set of needle-nose tweezers that I have left over from when I built tiny model ships. They're life, and cart, savers.

I don't mean to write these all like they're laws or rules...they're just my opinions. I would love to hear the opinions of others, even if they totally disagree.

JohnVF said:

-Stylus rake angle is far more important than I used to think it was.

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One audiophile turntable "expert" (who I shall not name) made a big deal about it, and after reading his post about SRA, the theory actually came from a study decades ago, so he was just bringing it to light, and showing us how to do it with modern tools. So for things like that, I can thank him for the information. I found tools to draw an angle on the screen so I could get the SRA about where it needs to be.

What irks me (and I get a lot of hate for this) is when some owners crank on that VTA (height) adjustment like it's a tone control. That...is not how it works. The idea is to get the stylus at an angle where it is as close as possible to how the record was cut. (And that includes the springiness of lacquer after the cutting stylus goes through it, if I'm remembering it correctly.) Anything else is mistracking.

JohnVF said:

That Steve Guttenberg dude does that on his SL-1200g and it annoys the crap out of me. Maybe that's the only reason it bugs me...HIM.

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You're not wrong. Or alone. 😉 Having encountered previous disinformation, or just plain bad recommendations, via his channel, I won't even watch it.

JohnVF said:

But, yeah, sometimes life's too short to use shims.

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I did it, though. The original V15 Type V (before the MR stylus--it originally shipped with the HE--hyper-elliptical) came with a complete mounting kit, even a plastic stylus insert that sat flat on a platter to show if the azimuth was correct. If not, they provided tiny stickers as shims, which went on top of those proprietary threaded nuts they had. And since I used that thing for decades, in the same arm, there was never a reason to change it.

JohnVF said:

Having the right tools means EVERYTHING. From protractors, to digital scales, to some way to magnify the stylus in the groove to rough-in SRA (I use a camera with a macro lens but also have a USB microscope), to the TWEEZERS you use to push the tags onto the pins, or reverse.

Click to expand...

One tip I can give through my own experience--I never push the clips on the cartridge all the way. I leave a tiny gap so I can get behind them with a screwdriver and push them off of the pins. I inherited a small jeweler's plier, and that works well if I need to get in there and move things around.

I have a mirrored protractor specifically for my table. USB microscopes, digital gauge, a couple of rubber wedges from the V15 kit to hold the platter in place.

That reminds me. The V15 kit had an alignment jig which the body of the cartridge sat in, and adjustments were made in two places to set the alignment--that was a dream to set up. I wish some enterprising manufacturer would do this for other carts out there. The way my eyesight is these days, I go for about an hour squinting at everything, using a USB microscope even to try to get the cantilever aligned, and I usually get nowhere except frustrated as I don't trust what my eyes are telling me. I'm so over it. I've said it before--I'd even pay someone to set it up for me, only I don't trust they'll do it the way I want.

My worst alignment experience was a certain cartridge (which, again, I can't mention because I'll get more hate thrown at me) that cost a small fortune and nothing I could do would make it stop mistracking. Examining it more with a microscope, not only was the azimuth of the cantilever way off, they couldn't even mount a f*cking square diamond shank into a square hole without it being cockeyed! Manufacturer rep's response? Basically 🖕. Not their problem. And that goes back to my first thought in my post here--that blog post mentioned that the angle of the stylus could vary from manufacturer specs. So...it stands to reason that aligning a cartridge by the body is wrong, and even aligning the cantilever may not be as accurate as we think it is.

There is a very expensive software system out there that measures distortion and assists with proper setup. I can't see spending $1,100 but then again, since I can't trust my skills anymore, what choice do I have? All I really want is my V15 back, and no mistracking. Not really asking for much, am I?

Rudy said:

One audiophile turntable "expert" (who I shall not name) made a big deal about it, and after reading his post about SRA, the theory actually came from a study decades ago, so he was just bringing it to light, and showing us how to do it with modern tools. So for things like that, I can thank him for the information. I found tools to draw an angle on the screen so I could get the SRA about where it needs to be.

What irks me (and I get a lot of hate for this) is when some owners crank on that VTA (height) adjustment like it's a tone control. That...is not how it works. The idea is to get the stylus at an angle where it is as close as possible to how the record was cut. (And that includes the springiness of lacquer after the cutting stylus goes through it, if I'm remembering it correctly.) Anything else is mistracking.


You're not wrong. Or alone. 😉 Having encountered previous disinformation, or just plain bad recommendations, via his channel, I won't even watch it.


I did it, though. The original V15 Type V (before the MR stylus--it originally shipped with the HE--hyper-elliptical) came with a complete mounting kit, even a plastic stylus insert that sat flat on a platter to show if the azimuth was correct. If not, they provided tiny stickers as shims, which went on top of those proprietary threaded nuts they had. And since I used that thing for decades, in the same arm, there was never a reason to change it.


One tip I can give through my own experience--I never push the clips on the cartridge all the way. I leave a tiny gap so I can get behind them with a screwdriver and push them off of the pins. I inherited a small jeweler's plier, and that works well if I need to get in there and move things around.

I have a mirrored protractor specifically for my table. USB microscopes, digital gauge, a couple of rubber wedges from the V15 kit to hold the platter in place.

That reminds me. The V15 kit had an alignment jig which the body of the cartridge sat in, and adjustments were made in two places to set the alignment--that was a dream to set up. I wish some enterprising manufacturer would do this for other carts out there. The way my eyesight is these days, I go for about an hour squinting at everything, using a USB microscope even to try to get the cantilever aligned, and I usually get nowhere except frustrated as I don't trust what my eyes are telling me. I'm so over it. I've said it before--I'd even pay someone to set it up for me, only I don't trust they'll do it the way I want.

My worst alignment experience was a certain cartridge (which, again, I can't mention because I'll get more hate thrown at me) that cost a small fortune and nothing I could do would make it stop mistracking. Examining it more with a microscope, not only was the azimuth of the cantilever way off, they couldn't even mount a f*cking square diamond shank into a square hole without it being cockeyed! Manufacturer rep's response? Basically 🖕. Not their problem. And that goes back to my first thought in my post here--that blog post mentioned that the angle of the stylus could vary from manufacturer specs. So...it stands to reason that aligning a cartridge by the body is wrong, and even aligning the cantilever may not be as accurate as we think it is.

There is a very expensive software system out there that measures distortion and assists with proper setup. I can't see spending $1,100 but then again, since I can't trust my skills anymore, what choice do I have? All I really want is my V15 back, and no mistracking. Not really asking for much, am I?

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I've seen the Feikert Adjust+ setup system/software in action and its quite thorough. Maybe someday I'll invest in it, but I have maybe too much fun swapping carts in and out and I get it pretty close fairly quickly and actually enjoy the listening and tweaking. Which probably means I'm slightly insane. But I also used to build tiny model warships with little brass parts for railings, rigging, stairs, etc. Which is also where some of my cartridge tools came from, like my small collection of tweezers and jewelers pliers. It really does make a huge difference, and your method of not pushing the clips all the way on is spot on, though my needle-noise tweezers are so fine that I can usually get them behind anything.

As for SRA, I do recall Fremer acting like he'd discovered something new with it, which was...odd... as its really just another way of saying VTA/arm height because what are you adjusting with VTA? SRA. And I feel his 91 degrees agrees with my results in lining things up and yes, the tone control up and down is quite silly. That's the cart mistracking. Perhaps its 91 degrees stationary (which is how I set it) because with the record moving, the drag will pull it more to 90 degrees...which I know some mastering engineers track at. ? Isn't this fun?!

While the groove is front to back, mistracking seems to be more in the side to side movement. You have this ellipse of some degree of aggressiveness in shape (don't even start on me with conicals...) dragging through the groove with the wide part of the diamond facing side to side going in and out of these ridges and some small error in alignment means that that wedge is going to be hitting all over the place, not slotting into the undulations.

I like a cantilever with a long straight nude diamond on the end where I can easily see its vertical orientation. I really should get the microscope back out, though my macro-photography has been working well.

And I applaud the shims! If I ever settle on a cart here, long enough to leave it for awhile, I will get the fozgometer out. I don't know if this is a thing but it seems to me that higher compliance cart, to some degree, will 'adjust' its azimuth -a hair- to the groove better than a lower compliance cart. As in, the springiness of the suspension allows the cart to kind of sit in and settle in to a correct angle while a stiff cantilever will just plow through at an incorrect angle causing all sorts of problems and needing a LOT more care in getting every last bit of alignment spot-on. (I could also be totally full of it on this...I've just found higher compliance carts MUCH more easy to track well).

I have a good bit of the staple tools here. Tbh, I tend to use a trusty old mirror protractor the most. My ear tends to guide me through setting up a cart beyond the protractor. I do want one of those Shure alignment kits though. But more for show than use.

IMO Fremer wasn't acting as if he invented the whole VTA/SRA thing - he was popularizing these fine details. Why ? Because more people are buying very expensive cartridges these days and they could be leaving performance on the table if that finely cut stylus isn't aligned as best as can be. And because manufacturing processes aren't perfect - sometimes the degree of adjustment required isn't possible by arm adjustment alone.

None of this is new, but I certainly didn't know anything about it in 1981 when this was published - a really good diagram:

airdronian said:

IMO Fremer wasn't acting as if he invented the whole VTA/SRA thing - he was popularizing these fine details. Why ? Because more people are buying very expensive cartridges these days and they could be leaving performance on the table if that finely cut stylus isn't aligned as best as can be. And because manufacturing processes aren't perfect - sometimes the degree of adjustment required isn't possible by arm adjustment alone.

None of this is new, but I certainly didn't know anything about it in 1981 when this was published - a really good diagram:

View attachment 77351

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Of note, that diagram shows a fairly benign elliptical contact patch, imagine if the stylus was a HE or one of the many Line Contact variants.

They had this stuff figured out a long time ago.

Dan

Tables_and_Tubes said:

Of note, that diagram shows a fairly benign elliptical contact patch, imagine if the stylus was a HE or one of the many Line Contact variants.

They had this stuff figured out a long time ago.

Dan

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I agree, but getting (relatively) affordable tools to view these things at home is more recent I think.

The issue of Audio my image came from was a special phono cartridge issue. It's worth reading for the ads !

In my experience, the Fozgometer has led me and another astry. Once the lowest numbers were obtained, the carts were so canted that they were comical. I'd love to know how to avoid that situation.

airdronian said:

I agree, but getting (relatively) affordable tools to view these things at home is more recent I think.

The issue of Audio my image came from was a special phono cartridge issue. It's worth reading for the ads !

https://www.worldradiohistory.com/Archive-All-Audio/Archive-Audio/80s/Audio-1981-03.pdf

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I'm sure, I would have purchased that copy of Audio in 81'. May still even have it around here, somewhere!

All of this cart. setup talk is pushing me to get my USB microscope back out.

Dan

Tables_and_Tubes said:

I'm sure, I would have purchased that copy of Audio in 81'. May still even have it around here, somewhere!

All of this cart. setup talk is pushing me to get my USB microscope back out.

Dan

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I’m doing the final setup on my AT24 tonight and of course I can’t find the USB microscope. I’ll try my macro photo thing but the stylus isn’t as prominent as in my last cart.

@JohnVF - OK you got me all befuddled. I struggle with the SRA thing and have always just gone with the level arm bit. Can you give me an SRA for dummies quick tip on how to get this right?! I do have a magnifying glass, but do I need some other gizmo (USB Microscope?) to assist me is seeing this tiny diamond in the groove? Is 90 degrees the standard?

Funny that I am not the only one that cringes when watching the Audiophiliac

MWalt said:

@JohnVF - OK you got me all befuddled. I struggle with the SRA thing and have always just gone with the level arm bit. Can you give me an SRA for dummies quick tip on how to get this right?! I do have a magnifying glass, but do I need some other gizmo (USB Microscope?) to assist me is seeing this tiny diamond in the groove? Is 90 degrees the standard?

Funny that I am not the only one that cringes when watching the Audiophiliac

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The reliable way to do it is with a USB microscope. I've been taking high resolution close-up photos with my camera and then zooming in on the stylus in Lightroom ...which can give me a rough idea if I'm close. I'm aiming for about 91 degrees, a slight forward lean, evident in looking at the reflection of the stylus against the record (at 90 degrees it would be straight up and down like one line). I vaguely recall the Fremer writeup being around the use of 91 vs 90 degrees? I"ll have to track it down. It was actually an interesting (to me) read. Oh, though I check things with the camera I actually set things up by ear first. I start at level and go up and down and listen for sibilances to go away, a balanced sound where the bass and treble seem the same. Then I check with the camera and...it's usually about right. Not ideal...I just can't find my USB microscope.

I'm not anti-fremer, I just find him a bit insufferable at times when he acts like he's the only opinion that matters in this stuff. But I'm a bit insufferable at times, so pot/kettle.

EDIT: Its 92 degrees not 91. Though it seems the cutting angle varies between 91 and 94ish degrees.

Here's some of Fremer's thoughts on it, and he has a link to the article that airdronian referenced above. Which is a lot on why it's important especially with a severe stylus shape (conical wouldn't matter nearly as much). And he says 92 degrees.

Just as one example of variation, my tonearm is currently a bit tail-down, but I just took a photo of my cantilever and the stylus has a very slight forward lean. Actually maybe too much. I'll play with it some.

JohnVF said:

The reliable way to do it is with a USB microscope. I've been taking high resolution close-up photos with my camera and then zooming in on the stylus in Lightroom ...which can give me a rough idea if I'm close. I'm aiming for about 91 degrees, a slight forward lean, evident in looking at the reflection of the stylus against the record (at 90 degrees it would be straight up and down like one line). I vaguely recall the Fremer writeup being around the use of 91 vs 90 degrees? I"ll have to track it down. It was actually an interesting (to me) read. Oh, though I check things with the camera I actually set things up by ear first. I start at level and go up and down and listen for sibilances to go away, a balanced sound where the bass and treble seem the same. Then I check with the camera and...it's usually about right. Not ideal...I just can't find my USB microscope.

I'm not anti-fremer, I just find him a bit insufferable at times when he acts like he's the only opinion that matters in this stuff. But I'm a bit insufferable at times, so pot/kettle.

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I do very much the same with photos for vta and azimuth.
I also like using a mirror under the stylus.

MrEd said:

I do very much the same with photos for vta and azimuth.
I also like using a mirror under the stylus.

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You know.. I could use a laserdisc!

Here's where I'm at. I think I'm actually a bit too low, and the arm is riding tail-down. Looks just off 90 degrees? Not the best photo but some of my lenses are wherever the microscope is in the basement.

Best thing I did was get a protector made by a Lenco Heaven member and print the setup sheet from Conrad's Free Stuff.

MrEd said:

Best thing I did was get a protector made by a Lenco Heaven member and print the setup sheet from Conrad's Free Stuff.
View attachment 77357

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My Dennessen Soundtractor is a 3 point protractor that works similarly, though it's Baerwald. As is my mirrored two point protractor, which I I double check things with on this arm as its a bit hard to find the center point of the arm pivot on it. Anyway, I like having two that agree with each other, one that doesn't rely on the same things as the other...it stops me from worrying that I've gotten it wrong, and so if things aren't sounding good I know to look somewhere besides overhang.

I raised the arm between 1 and 2mm and the sound locked in better. Oddly instead of the tone changing it projected a bit more. Voices felt more present.

Vinyl is so wonky, I love it.

What I don't understand is the varied use of VTA. I've seen it used as a sort of locked in angle of when the cart is parallel to the record surface. Which is just odd to me. So then this whole argument over VTA vs SRA comes in. With SRA being 'off' sometimes when VTA is correct. But...why can't VTA change? Why can't 'correct' VTA be that which results in correct SRA? Instead of it just being what it is when the arm/carl is parallel to the record surface? It alls just seems very silly.

I’m having an off night with Cart set up and hum…..I absolutely hate HUM….sorry. Just needed to vent.